Biodiesel

Biodiesel Suppliers

I searched and couldn't find a thread that specifically dealt with this topic, and since there's a good chance it'll be a subject of importance I thought we might pay some specific attention to it.

Nissan's official advice is:

Where possible, do not use biodiesel and under no circumstances should you use 100% biodiesel. If you must use it because there is no other supply available, use the least amount possible and change back to full petroleum-based diesel as soon as possible. We recommend Shell as a source for your fuel.

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Addendum to that advice: my dealer added that purchasing diesel from sites with a high diesel turnover is vastly more preferable.

It's an issue because some of our members have noticed that fuel suppliers are slipping in biodiesel to their fuel supply - at, according to those suppliers, up to 20% in some cases.

Suppliers Using or Not Using Biodiesel
Some fuel supply companies are not adding biodiesel to their fuels as yet, but can include up to 5% biodiesel without notifying its customers (thanks Spender). The official legislation can be seen here.

Here's a list of known biodiesel quantities in various locations (figures compiled by members' reports throughout this thread or from website research):

Area_______Supplier_______Biodiesel Amount
NSW Urban____Caltex_________Various amounts up to 5% in NSW, see website
NSW Urban____Shell__________None reportedly, and don't mention it on their website
NSW Urban____BP____________NIL% as per the BP Australia website
NSW Urban____Mobil__________None? No mention of biodiesel at all on their web site.
NSW Urban____United_________--- Web site doesn't even acknowledge that they sell diesel, let alone biodiesel.
NSW Statewide__Freedom_______20% Bio as per their website

NSW Rural______AFF__________Possibly up to 20% Biodiesel. Website states no, but POS has blended fuel?

NT____________AFF__________Possibly up to 20% Bio

QLD Urban_____Shell_________0% Bio
QLD Urban_____United________20% Bio
QLD Statewide__Freedom______20% Bio as per their website

SA Statewide___Caltex________Up to 20% Bio - see website
SA Rural_______AFF__________Possibly up to 20% Bio

WA Statewide___Gull_________No mention in their ULSD product. Up to 20% in their blended product as per their website

NZ____________Gull_________No mention of biodiesel at all in their fuel products.

I'll edit this post to reflect changes to this list as time goes on.

THINGS TO NOTE ABOUT BIODIESEL
* It has a lower calorific value than petroleum diesel. You might save $ at the bowser, but may use more litres to cover the same distance.

So, what's your local servo pumping?

I wonder what the big problem is with biodiesel? Is it the alcohol content, the solvents, a combination of many things? I don't know enough about the makeup of biodiesel. I woulld have to think however (and this is pure hypothesis), with the reduction in sulphur content in commercially available dino diesel, the presence of the "harder" chemicals (alcohols, solvents etc) in bio couldn't be a good thing. An engine (and its fuel system components) is designed to handle only so much in the way of aggressive chemicals.

Anyway, be interesting to see how this evolves over time, and whether the biodiesel stance of major manufacturers changes. Mercedes tell me that their official position is 5% biodiesel is fine. Anything more and they may have issues with supporting warranty claims relating from is use.

Hi all,

The servo's are now aloud to put upto 5% biodiesel in the mix without telling you, and currently united and freedom servo's use 20% and it's this 20% that ruined my Rodeo I used to have. It ate out all the seals. But most heavy diesel engine manufactures will allow up to 20% without affecting warranty. But i have seen some nasty results as i work fopr one of these engine companies.

Interesting spender, 20% biodiesel in united fuel. Could explain the problems I had with mine once when I was forced to buy united fuel (never again). The engine kept chugging all the time, emptied the fuel filter and the fuel was contaminated with all this 'stuff'. Drained the tank, new fuel filter, ran fine after that.

I wonder what the big problem is with biodiesel?

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I think there are several issues.

1) It's new. New is change. Change is bad unless we're doing it ourselves. If you want to change, you take the risk. (Car manufacturer's perspective)

2) Regulation of biodiesel production. Until the government steps in and mandates that biodiesel must have a certain amount of this, a certain amount of that - eg "less than 1% fatty solutes" or something, then you've no idea - and neither does the car company - of the actual composition of the fuel. It means that in every problem that could be related to the fuel system, they have this "unknown" that just makes it harder.

3) There may be some influence by the petrochemical companies with the manufacturers, although given the previous point, there's little need for that.

I guess there's a bit of the old "unleaded vs regular" argument too. We don't know how biodiesel will react, long term, to our small capacity motors. Will the valves hold up? What effect on the established value ranges for EGT (therefore in turn affecting boost pressures, injector duration etc).

The great unknown. We'll be over this in a few years!

Oooooh need to run some two stroke in your bio..............that'll fuel some discussion...........

If it weren't for the soluble fat in the biodiesel (which is what my dealer said caused a lot of the problems when using biodiesel) then you might have the perfect solution and instead of us adding 300ml to 70 litres (or so), the biodiesel suppliers can just add 4ml per litre (that's roughly what it works out to be at the moment) and charge the little bit extra for the fuel.

My dealer did say that they had a car in for repairs, cost about $7500 or something like that, and it had the fuel filter, pump etc filled with fatty deposits - from running 100% bio.

Now that biodiesel might have been poorly made, or even home brewed. It might have been poured straight into the tank from the chip fryer - we don't know.

As for arguments ... heh not for me. Happy to discuss, even try some things out, but will leave the rest for those that don't mind pugilists.

It's understandable dealers shrug away from the stuff, although given they could nearly void any warranty if the stuff was used and they worded their warranties right then it's a wonder they don't.

Just like climate change, just like oil in diesel the debates will always rage on and on because two differing sides can always argue but what I find interesting is the Nissan quote thats says they recommend Shell fuel. My Nissan dealer get's their tanks filled by Mobil I know this because I know the driver of the tanker that does it, although maybe thats just the Toyota side of the garage they save the good Nissan recommend stuff for the special side of the garage.

I think the recommendation may be a local thing (which I observed elsewhere as well), but then I've heard from several sources that Shell do not add any biodiesel at all to their fuel. Mobil may be the same, I don't know.

As far as warranty goes, my dealer made it clear to me that 100% biodiesel usage would result in a void warranty. I don't know if they can make that stick if I push it through the courts, but they would definitely be arguing that the use of that fuel was at the very least partly the cause of whatever failure (as long as it related to the failure - to be fair, they did say that if a wheel bearing was busted, or the wiper motor failed, it would be fixed no questions asked).

I can't say, given the nature of this beast, that I don't understand where the dealer is coming from. An unregulated manufacturing process could result in almost anything being poured into the tank.

I don't really care what Nissan dealers (or any other for that matter) say or recommend they only do it because thats what they use. If the Mobil rep went into your local dealer tomorrow and offered them a 20% discount on all fuels and lubes chances are next week they'd be recommending Mobil to you.

There are so few opinions out there that aren't bias and sure it can be said Nissan might not be directly making money off suggesting you run Shell because it's their recommended fuel but who's to say they aren't getting a kick back somewhere else. They recommend their own special Nissan oil too but that doesn't make many of us use it because most of us know the only thing genuine about it is the Nissan sticker.

Whether its Shell or Mobil, 5% or 20% bio the recommendation of those with a vested interest in either side of the argument are rarely worth listening too. If there was such a thing as independent bodies and they could run the tests then maybe there would be some answers but if you look deep enough into most of the tests being run they are run by one side or the other, and this goes for just about every debate.

Those who are against Bio tested it and they say its bad, those who like Bio tested it and they say it's ok, where is the independent test that gives an un biased answer. Even with regulation in the industry car dealers can't afford to make statements on the "for" side of bio diesel, just like they are extremely unlikely to say stick some oil in your diesel or go ahead and alter your ECU and have some fun because at the end of the day it could cost them money. Whether it be in corporate kick backs or as you suggested Tony someone taking them through the court system because legally saying bio voids warranty may not be correct they are potentially leaving themselves open for a cost they don't want. To me that makes a dealer as bias when it comes to these things and Kevin Rudd being asked who he will vote for next election.

There are so few opinions out there that aren't bias

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Too right. Agendas abound and it's the sorting that's the biggest challenge. I'm no longer certain that organisations like NRMA or RACQ are unbiased any more. Money has power.

Even with regulation in the industry car dealers can't afford to make statements on the "for" side

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I'm looking forward to regulation for a specific, particular reason: once they knuckle down and say "this is what you must put in the bucket when making the fuel and that is the limit of these substances that are allowed in the fuel" - then we will have something that the manufacturers can look at and say "we can tune/build for that".

It might only be a tweak on the ECU. It might be valve replacement, injector aperture changes - who knows.

Until the regulatory exercise starts, manufacturers are dealing with unknowns and have a good argument that we should leave it alone. Once it starts, you can bet the government will include a "minimum proportion of biodiesel" in the fuel anyway, so the manufacturers will have no choice but to accept it. They'd know this, too, but until the legislation comes in and provides some definition, they won't know which way to jump.

And it's far, far easier and less costly for them, for the time being, to try and back away from the issue simply because it's still a moving target. I happen to agree with that.

So, the focus here is to find out who's doing what so that we've all got some sort of reference to look up and make a choice about where we'll buy - or not buy - our diesel from.

And given the few figures so far, there's already 2 that I won't go near unless I can avoid it.

Jason said:

Oooooh need to run some two stroke in your bio..............that'll fuel some discussion...........

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Would that really work?
Surely not, there is no proof.
Does Bio make my fuel pump noisy?
Wont the two stroke try and trick my engine into igniting fuel on every second stroke?
There is to many questions to answer Jason I just can't take that comment seriously.

spender said:

The servo's are now aloud to put upto 5% biodiesel in the mix without telling you

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Is this a federal or state law because not one of the servos in this area including the United that just changed name have any signs up suggesting they use Bio at all. I could be ruining my engine and not knowing it. Nissan might be voiding my warranty as I type this.

There is one United servo a few towns away that's had cheap unleaded for a few years now (can't think what they call it but it's listed on the pumps separately) but none of the diesel pumps have signs on them. I don't much care if there is 5% bio in the fuel and sure there's an argument for not getting what you pay for but when it comes to fuel they have had us by the short and curlies for so long now how hard they twist isn't much of an issue anymore.

I can't see myself getting a truthful answer out of the pump jockey come checkout chicks at my local servos but I do find it a little interesting that anyone who's really been against Bio is more than likely pumping it in to their vehicles without knowing it in this area.

Had to fill up a little at united the other day, only put in $10 worth of diesel and sure enough like i had a few years ago, boom, that ugly backfire noise once again when i tried starting the car the next day, united have got something seriously wrong with their fuel, thats the 3rd time ny car has done that filling up with them. No other servo fuel does that.

KraftyPg said:

Would that really work?
Surely not, there is no proof.
Does Bio make my fuel pump noisy?
Wont the two stroke try and trick my engine into igniting fuel on every second stroke?
There is to many questions to answer Jason I just can't take that comment seriously.

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Did the give it away? I'm getting too obvious!

Jason said:

Did the give it away? I'm getting too obvious!

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It's only when you start dribbling with that tongue that there is issues.

Having a good old giggle here....

Especially the bit about adding 2stroke!

Krankin said:

Having a good old giggle here....

Especially the bit about adding 2stroke!

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Just don't add cooking oil, the last thing you want is your nuts and rings deep fried in the crackcase

KraftyPg said:

It's only when you start dribbling with that tongue that there is issues.

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Clearly if I was dribbling it would be ~

You should know that being in IT

Yeah but I've been in IT for so long I understand that some of you youngens are embarrassed by dribble and hide it in your collar