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Firefly

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Good ay to All,
We read about Bullbars for newer 4WDS......especially from the "3 letter" brands......being certified as....... etc etc etc......being compliant with ADR #............etc......and even "not affecting your new car warranty". I personally dont doubt any of these claims..........but my question is.....Where do I stand if I was to have a Bullbar on my new 4WD (2009 model ) that was not from the "3 letter " brands.......one that DIDNT have a compliance cert / sticker etc. Is it illegal to have a Bullbar on a new (air bag ) 4WD that isnt stamped compliant....or is it just a matter of ...... more fool you - you d*&kh#@d. Is there a firm printed requirement thru insurance that your Bar must be " compliant with rule #.........if you have airbags fitted. From what I can see, this seems to be a grey area re the rules......and obviousely if your company can claim "compliance with rule # etc etc then your product becomes more acceptable in the market place....BUT ....(finally)...back to my question.......ARE THERE SET PRINTED RULES....LEGALLY DRAWN UP GUIDELINES re Bullbars for 4WDs fitted with airbags. Thank you for being patient reading this.....Cheers
 
Thats something you have to ask your insurance company, and really read the fine print on any info they give you. All insurance companies are different in the way they insure and cover your car.
 
The legalities aren't covered by us, or your favourite mechanic. They're covered by the road authority in your state (RTA in NSW, VicRoads in Vic etc). They are the ones that dictate the rules.

Usually (there may be exceptions) your insurance company insures your vehicle based on compliance with those rules, so really it's not up to the insurance company either - they require, as part of the policy, that you maintain your vehicle in a roadworthy state - so it's back to the road authority again.

The road authority will specify what is and isn't acceptable in terms of a bullbar. The reason why there's an airbag issue, for instance, is that the airbags need to be deployed in an impact over 35km/h (I think that's right). Bullbars that are fitted to the chassis and neglecting the airbag system will cause the system to fail. It renders the vehicle unroadworthy.

Manufacturers of bull bars that meet the requirements have proven that their products comply with the specifications and don't negatively affect other systems like the airbag deployment. When you pay that little bit extra, the company recoups its production costs, distribution costs, profit, and importantly, the R&D costs that went into making it safer for you to put on the vehicle.

Just on the subject of bullbars, there's another issue sometimes forgotten about, and that's the pedestrian impact test. The big old K bars that you used to see on outback vehicles are gone, because they're a major danger to pedestrians. Take the bullbar on the front of my car - it's angled smoothly around the nose of the vehicle, so an impact with a person will not injure them as badly as the older, sharper, angled-forward bars of the past.

That's why I'd recommend going to one of those companies that have compliant equipment. Your insurance company won't have a problem with that either.
 
The likes of TJM/ARB etc have to crash test 2 bullbars per vehicle (I think it's two) to get compliance on a vehicle with airbags, to ensure they still deploy correctly. As you can imagine that's not a cheap exercise, it's part of the reason they justify charging so much.

If you crashed and the airbags didn't deploy, and you had a non-compliant/custom bullbar, I'm sure your insurance would work it out and not pay out.
 
T
If you crashed and the airbags didn't deploy, and you had a non-compliant/custom bullbar, I'm sure your insurance would work it out and not pay out.

Speculation though. - Not having a go
What are the real rulings on this?
 
Not really speculation, I'm basing it on the fact that if insurance companies can find a way not to pay they generally go with it, and insurance assessors are paid to find these things.
 
Iv read heaps of times in the herald sun cars guide were people write in saying they were involved in an accident and the airbags had not deployed.
Smithy, thats the guy who replys to the questions usually says all accidents are different and an airbag will not always deploy on every frontal impact.
Of course every accident varies, and who knows if the person writing in is making the accident sound worse than what it was.
 
Yeah but from which rule book are they reading?
ADR compliant ( Federal ) or state modification legislation?
Go back to the first post. IN BOLD> where are the rules?
 
Here is the QLD document.

http://www.transport.qld.gov.au/resources/file/ebde8d0521b67c6/Pdf_modification_motor_vehicles2.pdf

In particular:

Vehicles fitted with an airbag or manufactured to comply
with ADR 69 - Full Frontal Impact Occupant Protection
or both ADR 69 and ADR 73 – Offset
Frontal Impact Protection, can only be fitted with a bull
bar which:
• has been certified by the vehicle manufacturer as
suitable for that vehicle or
• has been demonstrated by the bull bar manufacturer
to not adversely affect compliance with the ADRs or
interfere with the critical airbag timing mechanism,
as the case may be.

Airbags are there for occupant safety, not vehicle safety. I'm not prepared to take the chance.
 
At the end of the day you can weld a fridge on the front of your car if you want. Just don't expect it to be roadworthy.
 
Here is the Vic one Aido:

http://www.vicroads.vic.gov.au/NR/rdonlyres/0C02F45F-8F9E-412F-8A21-EE61F201583D/0/VSI1web.pdf

Almost the same wording:

Vehicles fitted with an air bag or manufactured to comply
with Australian Design Rule (ADR) 69 or ADR 73, can only
be fitted with a bull bar which:-
• Has been certified by the vehicle manufacturer as
suitable for that vehicle; or,
• Has been demonstrated by the bull bar manufacturer
to not adversely affect the vehicle’s compliance with
ADR 69 or ADR 73 or interfere with any critical air bag
timing mechanism as the case may be.
Demonstration of compliance with ADR 69 or ADR 73
requires full scale barrier testing. Similarly demonstrating
that the critical air bag timing mechanism is not affected
when a bull bar is fitted may also require full scale barrier
testing.
ADR 69 applies to all new model passenger cars
manufactured on or after 1 July 1995.
ADR 73 applies to all new model passenger cars not
exceeding 2.5 tonnes GVM, manufactured on or after
1 January 2000.
keeping
 
Yes, ADR's are where it's at for airbags and their deployment etc.

There are two levels of legislation in place - one is Federal, the other is State/Territory. Simple tenet of law is that where the two conflict, Federal legislation will ALWAYS override State/Territory legislation. That is one of the basic cornerstones of our legal system.

ADR's (and such) cover standard vehicle compliance issues. As you can expect, not every single vehicle that gets registered for road use is inspected and approved. Manufacturers go through a process called "type approval". The manufacturers are then expected to build every vehicle to the same standard as the several which were inspected for the "type approval" for that range.

Then you have what is known as "low volume" or "secondary manufacturers". Think of such names as HSV, Tickford (or whatever they are known as now), and a range of "kit car" manufacturers, who use a donor vehicle which has already been type approved. There are differences between low volume and secondary manufacturers, but for the sake of simplicity, let's throw them in the same basket for this discussion.

These kind of approvals are at the Federal level.

Companies like ARB and TJM go through a process of endorsement which is similar. They create designs, which are approved in principle. Then the "in principle" designs are manufaturered and tested in real world. That is your impact or crash testing process. Following the successful process of crash testing, the (for example) bullbar is "type approved" for installation on X vehicle. That is a Federal level approval signifying that the device has met all applicable Federal legislation. Smaller manufacturers often can't afford to undertake the approval process, and it's not just a matter of thinking "she'll be right" and throwing a sticker on, because making a false declaration (that is, putting an approval sticker on when the approval process hasn't been undertaken) is a fairly serious offence. We're talking fines in the tens of thousands of dollars minimum, and the possibility of fairly decent jail terms. The manufacturers also have to retain all the evidence of undertaking the testing, and produce it to any authorised agency if requested.

No State or Territory registration authority can override that approval.

However your State/Territory registration authorities are the ones empowered to ENFORCE the legislation - whether that be State/Territory or Federal legislation. For example, back when I was a cop, I had powers under certain sections of legislation from NSW, the ACT, and also Federal... Generally they cover different things, but sometimes look lke they cover similar things, but from a different perspective. Can get complex, I assure you.

Anyway, back to the point. That is why the "big names" have the sticker which say's the device is ADR approved for installation on X vehicle, won't affect airbag deployment etc. Basically, makes the job a little bit easier if your local rego guy (who is the one responsible for enforcing the rules) wants you to prove that your bullbar is compliant. You see, your standard vehicle is "type approved". All good, now you can register it because although it is YOUR responsibility to ensure the vehicle meets all relevant legislation for being roadworthy, the manufacturer has done this on your behalf. But you want to install a bullbar. So you can either (a) select one from a "big brand" which is approved against the relevant legislation, or you can (b) have one made by your local expert welder and fabricator. In both examples, it's YOUR resposibility to prove that the modification (bullbar) has not affected the vehicle's compliance to all relevant legislation. In exampe (a), you have the sticke on the bullbar. In example (b), you have no such evidence. And the local rego people have every right in the world to deem your vehicle unroadworthy until YOU prove your vehicle (in its modified condition) is compliant with all relevant legislation. The onus is on YOU, not them.

Now...there are companies out there who manufacture and sell bullbars which look very much like the bullbar designs of some of the big players. I'm not going to mention names... One of these companies even states that their bullbars are "airbag compliant". That would, in my opinion, lead the average consumer to believe that the bullbar is okay to fit on their airbag equipped vehicle. However I have inspected several bullbars from one particular company, and nowhere could I find a label stating that the bullbar was compliant with relevant legislation. I brought this to the attention of the owner of one vehicle equipped with said bullbar....he contacted the company, only to be told "No, we don't get them approved, but they will work with your airbags just fine". Regardless of the manufacturers claim, fitting that bullbar to the vehicle made it instantly unroadworthy.

That's one of the reasons the bigger players charge more for their bullbars - they have to recover the R&D costs.

Anyway, hope that helps with one example of why you don't have to have your bullbar inspected/engineered etc for approval, if the manufacturer has already done it on your behalf. If they haven't had it approved already - you would have to have it inspected and approved yourself. Other mods are the same - if they are "type approved" by the manufacturer - all good. If not, each person who wishes to fit the accessory or modification must have it inspected/approved themselves.
 
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Thank you Anthony for an excellent reply. I have a b/bar on an 09 4WD - built by a company here in Outer Western Syd..that manufactures many products for 4WDs and ships them all over Oz.The company in Q didnt make a bar for my 09 Nav...so (he) offered to use my car for development of a proto........and give me a good price as well......so I have a bar that doesnt quiet fit properly.....cost me the SAME as an A%B bar...and hasnt been TESTED / COMPLIANCED...........who's the D^$k H*#d........apart from me doing such a stupid thing.......wouldnt you (as the customer) think this manufacturer of bullbars..F/R + many other 4X4 access.....who sells to all over Oz - would have knowm better re the rules for air bags etc.
 
Firefly, the manufacturer of your bullbar would have to be aware of the compliance issue. If yours is a prototype, then it's perfectly possible that they will endeavour to conduct some testing and provide you with certification anyway. It's something I'd be asking about, because without it, you are at risk.

The greater risk isn't personal injury to yourself, either. It's the insurer of the fool that runs into you, looking for a way to recoup their losses. If they get a sniff that your car can be declared unroadworthy, they'll push that hard, because it means they get an instant, easy win. Even if the incident wasn't your fault.
 
It's a complex set of rules, I know that! And believe me, I don't know where I store this information....must explain why I get migraines :)

A lot of manufacturers (and retailers) KNOW the rules, but prefer to ignore them. For example....one particular place in Sydney (something or other "racing"...."python" I think it was) sells extended shackles by the pallet load. Yet they are illegal fitment in every state and territory of Aus... I quizzed them - rang up and played dumb..."Gee, I was looking at your extended shackles, are the legal to fit here in NSW?" I'm in Canberra, but they didn't need to know. I figire they are in NSW, they should know the rules. Their response? They claimed not to know whether they were legal in NSW. Uh huh.
 

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