Gov't/Police crappy road safety strategies

***TEXT VERSION OF GOVERNMENT ISSUED PDF LISTING NEW SPEED DETECTION METHODS***


Digital Speed and Red Light Cameras November 2009


As part of the government’s commitment to improving road safety, the Department of Transport
and Main Roads and the Queensland Police Service are introducing new digital imaging and
detection technologies, including combined red light/speed cameras and point-to-point speed
cameras.

What are digital speed and red light cameras?

Digital speed and red light cameras are very similar to existing speed and red light cameras. The difference is they use
digital imaging technology and can utilise different detection technologies such as in-road sensors, as opposed to radar
devices.

Digital technology will introduce two new types of cameras on Queensland roads – combined red light/speed cameras
and point-to-point speed cameras (more information about these new cameras is provided on page two). New digital
fixed speed and mobile speed cameras will be installed at new locations, expanding on the current wet-film fixed speed
and mobile speed enforcement program.

Why is the Queensland Government installing digital cameras?

Digital cameras are being introduced to improve the existing Camera Detected Offence Program that catches and
penalises motorists speeding and running red lights.

Current wet-film cameras are becoming out of date. The new digital cameras are more efficient, require less
maintenance and do not require film to be changed or developed.

Digital images will also improve infringement processing time as the images and information are loaded directly into the
infringement processing system.

As well as being more efficient, digital cameras will expand the scope of the Camera Detected Offence Program by
allowing new enforcement techniques to be used, such as point-to-point enforcement and combined red light/speed
cameras.

How many cameras are being tested? Where will they be tested?

Seven cameras will be tested in locations across South East Queensland. These will be:

•
two combined red light/speed cameras
.
Waterworks Road and Jubilee Terrace, Ashgrove
.
Beaudesert Road and Compton Road, Calamvale
•
three spot-fixed speed cameras
.
Pacific Motorway, Loganholme
.
Gateway Arterial Road, Nudgee
.
Clem7 Tunnel, Woolloongabba to Bowen Hills
Department of Transport and Main Roads, Digital Speed and Red Light Cameras fact sheet, 2009


•
one point-to-point speed camera system

.
Bruce Highway, Caloundra Road to Wild Horse Mountain, Beerburrum
•
one mobile speed camera (used at varying locations).

How were these locations chosen?

The locations for digital fixed speed and red light cameras were identified by analysing lengths of road with a history of
speed related crashes or intersections with red light related crashes. A strong emphasis is placed on identifying
locations with a history of crashes that have resulted in death or hospitalisation.

This ensures that speed and red light cameras target and treat areas where speeding or red light crashes are an issue.

Why just South East Queensland?

These first digital cameras will be installed in the South East corner to enable the project team to test, closely monitor
and evaluate the performance of the cameras.

Once the testing is complete and the cameras are proven to accurately operate under Queensland conditions they can
be rolled out across the state.

When will the new cameras be tested? Why are they being tested?

The seven cameras will be tested from November 2009 until mid-2010. Testing will make sure the new technology
works properly to accurately measure and capture offending vehicles.

It is not just the cameras that are being tested but a new infringement processing system as well. Testing will ensure
that the new cameras are compatible with this system.

When will the new cameras become operational?

The cameras will begin issuing speed and/or red light infringement tickets when the project team is satisfied that the
cameras are fully operational. This is expected to be mid-2010.

Is the new digital technology accurate?

The digital speed and/or red light cameras must comply with the appropriate Australian Standards for accuracy or they
will not be used. All cameras are calibrated and certified to be accurate on an annual basis to provide proof that the
speed detections are accurate.

Will the new digital cameras replace the current wet-film cameras?

The current wet-film cameras will eventually be replaced by digital cameras. However, as the current wet-film cameras
are still effective, there is no reason to replace them immediately. The wet-film cameras will continue to operate until
they have reached the end of their operating life.

Department of Transport and Main Roads, Digital Speed and Red Light Cameras fact sheet, 2009


Will the new cameras be signed to advise motorists of their presence?

Yes, as with current wet-film fixed speed cameras, all new digital cameras will be signed once they become operational.

Combined red light/speed cameras

What is a combined red light/speed camera?

A combined red light/speed camera is placed at a signalised intersection and is able to detect both failure to obey the
red traffic signal and speeding.

The speed detection component of the camera can operate on the red, amber and green signal.

Will the cameras be able to detect someone who is both speeding and running a red light, or only
one or the other?

The camera will be able to detect both red light running and speeding at the same time.

Do other states/territories in Australia use this technology?

Combined red light/speed cameras, are also used in Victoria, South Australia and the Australian Capital Territory.

Point-to-point speed cameras

What is a point-to-point speed camera system?

A point-to-point (or average) speed camera system uses a number of cameras over a length of road to measure a
vehicle’s average speed. The system uses the time it takes for a vehicle to travel between the two points to calculate
the average speed of the vehicle:

Speed = Distance/Time.

How does this system work?

Point-to-point speed camera systems use a number of cameras mounted at staged intervals along a particular route.

Point-to-point camera systems, like fixed speed cameras, are monitoring traffic 24 hours a day, 7 days a week.
However, unlike current fixed speed cameras, point-to-point systems are not activated when a vehicle violates the
speed limit at a given point in time measured by a speed detection device.

Rather, point-to-point camera systems apply a mathematical calculation based on the time it takes for a vehicle to travel
from one camera to the next and the distance between the cameras.

Department of Transport and Main Roads, Digital Speed and Red Light Cameras fact sheet, 2009


The point-to-point camera system determines the average speed between the two points and compares this speed to
the speed limit of the road to establish if an offence has occurred.

Have point-to-point speed cameras proven to be effective?

Point-to-point cameras are used widely overseas and have proven to be very successful in slowing down drivers and
reducing the number and severity of crashes.

Victoria currently uses point-to-point enforcement for all vehicles on the Hume Highway, and New South Wales uses
such systems for heavy vehicle monitoring and enforcement. Other states are actively planning to introduce point-topoint
enforcement.

What length of road will the point-to-point detection be over?

The first length of road that the point-to-point speed camera system will cover is approximately 13km.

Department of Transport and Main Roads, Digital Speed and Red Light Cameras fact sheet, 2009

"As part of the government’s commitment to improving road safety"

Yeah f*ckin right! More like "as part of the government's commitment to recouping some of that money we pissed down the drain on various failed projects such as the Traveston Dam amongst others....we need to fine more people for speeding..."

Look, if you get caught by a speed camera van that's clearly visible on the road or a fixed speed camera with signs up - you deserve it. You're obviously not paying much attention to the road. Since speed cameras were introduced in queensland some 15 or so years ago, the road toll has still increased year by year. Speed cameras have done absolutely nothing to make the roads safer. The government might say that it's slowed people down, but that just serves to bolster my argument that exceeding the speed limit in itself is NOT a cause of many accidents. If accidents/deaths are still rising, but we have more speed cameras and people driving slower, then obviously the problem lies elsewhere. sure, once you start going beyond 15-20% or so over the speed limit then yeah, sure it's going to increase your chances of having a crash exponentially regardless of whether you're Craig Lowndes or Joe Blow - but to say every kay over is a killer is stretching the truth to the point of mass public deception. If "speed kills" and "every kay over is a killer" then why are not all racing car drivers dead? I'll tell you why, because they know what their vehicle can do, they concentrate on what they are doing, and they are well trained. Basically everything that most road users DO NOT or ARE NOT. The government needs to focus on the root of the problem rather than just trying to fine everybody for speeding. If they want to make people better drivers they need to make it tougher to get your licence, tougher to keep it (and I'm talking about 5 yearly driving tests to renew your licence - not being harsher with penalties), continual education advertisements on TV, Radio, newsprint (educational, not shock value "speed kills" advertisements that we all know have no effect whatsoever), and getting more highly visible and unmarked patrol cars on our roads. And by more, I mean a LOT more. And in stead of focusing on speeding, focus on SAFETY - get them fining people who are driving continuously in the right hand lane, people who swerve through lanes, people not paying attention (talking, stuffing around with the Cd player, on the phone, doing hair/make up), get crappy unroadworthy rust buckets off the road, and EDUCATE people PROPERLY about how to drive on motorways/highways/country roads - not just how to parallel park and hill start in the city. To tow a trailer/caravan further than 20km from your home you should need a special registration which includes a course and test on how to drive with the trailer attached. And this is a contentious one, but women should not be allowed to drive anything bigger than a sedan or compact SUV. Put the kids on a friggin bus or get off your arse and walk them to school.

And I must say I am not a fan of the licence plate recognition cameras, soon we'll have government cameras tracking and logging every move we make

Well, that's my rant. Thanks for reading, I feel a lot better now. Time for a brew

WIR35 said:

Well, that's my rant. Thanks for reading, I feel a lot better now. Time for a brew

Click to expand...

I skimmed it all But I get the gist.
We have had those for some time now.
Stupid people make voluntary contributions.
Don't be stupid.
I agree though that better training and a higher quality control of people and vehicles on the road would go much further to making it a safer world.

you gys will get over it
afaik we have always used digital cameras over here. guy sits in the van and watches you on a laptop.
the point to point is interesting. a lot like police doing truckies via their log books.

as much as i hate it, its good that they are enforcing speeds limits. if traffic around here drove like it did 10-15 years ago we would have fatals daily. however because they ignore many other basic infringements a lot of drivers are nutcase drivers.
it more about changing drive attitudes than anything.

WIR35 said:

***TEXT VERSION OF GOVERNMENT ISSUED PDF
Victoria currently uses point-to-point enforcement for all vehicles on the Hume Highway, and New South Wales uses
such systems for heavy vehicle monitoring and enforcement. Other states are actively planning to introduce point-to point
enforcement.
Cameras fact sheet, 2009

Click to expand...

Well, apparently we are, much fanfare about it and then no noise whatsoever and I currently drive the Hume through up to four camera points twice a day. I am regularly passed by the same couple of cars traveling quite a bit above the speed limit, either they have long since lost their licenses or the cameras did not work like so many others in Vic and are not actually operational.

Got to love a two faced approach, the Vic government publicised that the point to point system would nab you at more than 3KMH over the limit at each point or at more than 7kmh over it point to point. So it is safer to travel 7kmh over the limit for many many kilometers at a time but on the straight, flat bits of road where the cameras are sited, 3kmh makes you a menace to society?

Good read, thanks for posting.

Soon we will have a system like they do in parts of Europe. If you elect to tell the Transport Department your email address for administration reasons (rego/licence renewal etc) they can photograph you for speeding and email the fine to you before you get home. That would suck

It's just a sign of the times, technology advancing.

I can tell you now the hume fwy cameras are not point to point, or at least they were not working when i travelled through them. How do i know, well i made a 3hr trip in 2hr 10min.

We all know speed cameras are for revenue, how often is there a pile up in the middle of a freeway such as the hume???? honestly!

Yeah they're revenue raising, but if they are marked like they are in SA, then it's not an issue.

The fixed ones here are supposedly in places of high crash incidents. Most of the fatals happen in country area's where you never see any police presence. What annoys me, is the councils solution is to drop country limits to 60/80 on country some country (hills) roads, but it isn't the people doing 100 that kill themselves, it some idiot doing 130+. An 80 sign isn't going to slow them down.

Some interesting reading on the revenue raising in Adelaide

AdelaideNow... Adelaide speed cameras in 'wrong spots'

An old article as the highest speed camera in Adelaide earning around a mill per year. It's in an area that in any where else it would be at least 60, if not 70-80, but no it's 50. A 6 Lane divided road through park lands.

Touch wood, haven't been caught speeding by a camera unit, so they're not all bad if you pay attention when you drive.

the combined red light/speed camera is a evil idea.

Iv only ever had 2 tickets in my 11years of driving, and both times i deserved them, i was speeding i knew it, so i copped it, reason was had to finish my car for an event the next day and the shop was closing where i had to get a part, but if i were to get a fine for a few kays over id be very upset. After my fine, I DO NOT SPEED, i never did, especially now with the kids.

One of the few places I wold have accepted a speed camera as other than a revenue based device is now gone, although Vicroads in their idiocy built another one just like it.

The old Donnybrook Rd intersection with the Hume Highway was an utter deathtrap and needed the overpass that they built last year 20 years ago. it is one palce where I would support a reduced speed limit and utterly rigid enforcement by fixed permanent cameras. I drive through there nearly every day and used to see evidence of crashes, mostly serious almost every week.

Then the stupid buggers built the Picnic Point bypass on the Princes Highway out near Longwarry (I think it is Longwarry) and put an intersectionin the middle of a busy 110KMH road. Then they dropped it to 100, andd recently to 80 as it is a high crash site. They recently compounded it by lack of design when bringing the traffic from the new service stations back onto the highway.


That one I do not support a speed camera approach to, they lacked vision when the designed it and should bite the bullet and build the overpass that it should have had in the first place. I suspect that there are more crashes there now than there used to be on the old single cariageway.

As far as I'm concerned the only thing that stops speeding drivers is a visible police presence, marked cars, uniformed cops and lots of them, by the time a speeder has got his fine in the mail it could be too late to stop them. I don't really agree with any statement like cameras saves lives etc but at the same time can see why the governments use them, they are a darn side cheaper than doing it the right way and putting real coppers out there, because real coppers expect a pay cheque every week.

Cameras do suck but atleast in other states they are willing to tell drivers where the cameras are, in Victoria the government deem that knowledge too much for the general public to know. If governments showed us just how fines were being used to pay for road upgrades and improvements maybe it would be a different story but instead all we hear about is how much the cameras make, which is usually told to us by the opposition so we hate the party in power but lets face it the same would happen no matter who is in power.

Bluestar the bit you are talking about is actually Labertouche and your right putting in a bypass to keep traffic flowing at up to 110ks and then several years later dropping that speed because they put an intersection is is just ludicrous. BP created the bad intersection by building the two servos where they did and the planning mobs didn't help by letting them but the crossroad has always been there and had Vic Roads thought about it in the beginning when they made the bypass they would have built an overpass there but VR don't consider the side road to be their issue because it's a local council road. Thankfully as yet I haven't seen any cop cars or cameras in the new 80k section but they may have been there.

It makes my blood boil. Surely the government knows what they're doing is useless but choose to continue on installing speed cameras and reducing their active duty police patrols. One day I would love to see a clever barrister lead a class action against the government with evidence that the government knowingly neglected their duty to road safety by taking the "easy option" and just installing speed cameras everywhere, when they knew that other measures would have done a better job.

Yes, put speed cameras in. But if a speed camera earns $1 million per year, use all of the proceeds to fund educational advertising campaigns and more highway patrol cars. I'd imagine 5 or 10 fixed camera earning up to one million dollars a year could quite easily pay for a year's advertising campaign and a squadron of highway patrol cars and officers.

I wrote out a 2000 word response.
Deleted it.
Watch this and tell me your skin doesn't crawl or you don't become emotive
YouTube - TAC 2009 Campaign TV ad - 20 Anniversary retrospective montage "Everybody Hurts" music by REM
I was active in the SES until recently. Road Accident Rescue, RAR.
In short if everybody looked after themselves and their own they would know and make it known that a vehicle is a loaded weapon.
I'll save the sermon and my ideas for later.

Change attitudes by changing your own.


Edit: Not taking a shot at anyone as it would appear when I re-read this. Just adding it to the discussion.
Look after yourselves and look after everyone you can by education and training where you can. Don't rely on the Governement. Its up to everyone.

It sure is a loaded weapon. Problem is, due to government propaganda, people think that if they drive under the speed limit and their car has fifty airbags and ABS, they are driving safely and are doing nothing wrong. A car driving on a freeway doing 99 will inflict much the same carnage as a car doing 109 - but the government would have us believe this is not the case.

Cars on the autobahn in germany have no speed limit and you actually get fined if your driving too slow in the fast lane.
My cousin before he became a policeman was working as security at the airport, one day he spoke with a guy who was from overseas and he had drove down from nsw, long story short, the guy said that the freeway was good to drive on but boring as f*ck because speed limit was only 110, he said its easier to loose concentration when driving for 3 or more hours when you could easily do the trip in 1 1/2 hours and be done with your driving.

The problem with that is that everyone looses concentration at some stage and it's bad enough they do it at 100ks let alone 200ks. I don't agree with revenue raising and I've never been happy when I've been on the wrong end of it but at the same time if they dropped the speed limit by 10k it wouldn't worry me either.

Although I still think the fines should be used to actually make the roads safer as opposed to using it to come up with stupid ideas like where to put the next camera

The M1 motorway between Brisbane and the Gold Coast, which continues down into northern NSW is a beautiful 4-8 lane road. There is no reason why we couldn't have an autobahn-type arrangement. I completely agree, if you're driving fast then your adrenalin levels are much higher which will make you concentrate 10-fold over what you would usually be like. I don't think we will ever get politicians and senior public servants to recognise this though.... They're all weak as water and useless

Just how many of us really want to drive our Navs at 180 anyway. The fuel usage would be astronomical and we'd be selling our over priced houses just to pay for over priced fuel.

The major difference between here and other countries when it comes to speed limits is the conditions of the roads. Even a newly sealed or newly made road in this country doesn't come close to matching the roads of somewhere like Germany. Our road conditions are possibly as much to blame for accidents as bad driving is, especially since so many people can't drive to the conditions, but if you look at any road in this country it's not made for high speed travel. Even in the NT where the speed limit can be up to 130 the roads and the maintenance they get just aren't good enough and no amount of money from speed cameras is going to make it so, not when you consider just how much it costs to make the crappy roads we have.

I still think the main issue with going faster is the drivers themselves. Look how many accidents happen on race tracks where the roads are purposely made and the drivers are highly trained. Even if you take out brain fades and over zealous drivers, which happens even in professional racing, they still have accidents, but atleast their cars are made to protect the drivers. Offer the same rules on even a straight bit of concrete road and untrained morons will try even harder to out do each other and possibly take out all around them.

While I still don't agree that governments are doing all that they can to make the roads safer I can't see opening up the laws any further is much of an answer either.

KraftyPg said:

Bluestar the bit you are talking about is actually Labertouche and your right putting in a bypass to keep traffic flowing at up to 110ks and then several years later dropping that speed because they put an intersection is is just ludicrous. BP created the bad intersection by building the two servos where they did and the planning mobs didn't help by letting them but the crossroad has always been there and had Vic Roads thought about it in the beginning when they made the bypass they would have built an overpass there but VR don't consider the side road to be their issue because it's a local council road. Thankfully as yet I haven't seen any cop cars or cameras in the new 80k section but they may have been there.

Click to expand...

That was it, I could not recall what the locality was called. I know they got it wrong right at the start, I was living in Sale and driving to Melbourne fairly regularly when they built that section. I can not understand how when they spent the kind of money required to build that much road they so badly lacked the vision as to build that intersection in the first place.

I went through on my way to Sale one Saturday and it was 100 and the next Saturday and it was 80 and the coppers had people pulled over issuing tickets. No such thing as a period of grace where they pull you over and rant at you for a bit for a week or two before issuing infringement notices after significantly changing a speed limit that stood for around a decade.

Aido, I am pretty passionate about road safety and to be honest I despair at anything much changing. In my mind it has been around 20 years since they had a new idea, it has just been 20 years of more and more bloody TV spots by the TAC and more and more cameras out there. I think a mix of a decent number of marked cars and an unknown number of unmarked ones constantly out there is far more effective than the Vic approach of enforcement by Nikon. When they can produce and install a reliable "Driving like a cock" camera than they will have something new and a way forward, but to echo a comment above, I have a huge fundamental issue with speed cameras both manned (By the theoretical "Observer" of the ofence, who is usually reading the paper or a book or asleep) and fixed. If I blare past a copper doing something really inappropriate I will be pulled up on the spot, potentially life saved, do the same past a speed camera and you will get your ticket to the policemens ball in the mail in a couple of weeks. Regardless of the fact that you may have killed someone a couple of minutes later. That markes them as contemptible in my book, the babsitter of the camera does not give a rats if you go and kill yourself or someone else five minutes down the road.


Pretty touchy nerve at the moment, I knew the folks who were killed near Kilmore a week ago pretty well and went to the funeral on Thursday. A speed camera on every straight stretch of road in the state would have done nothing at all for them.