Brand New D40 Turbo Surge and Flutter

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krunchi

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Hi Guys,

New to the forum, picked up my brand new 2010 ST navara TD 6 weeks ago.
The Car has had a good run in from QLD to VIC and now has 6k on the clock.

Problem i am having is after the first 1k the car developed a turbo flutter when under certain light to medium loads and you back off the throttle.
This has gotten more and more since.

As well as this i also get he same sound but slower frequency while driving.
The Flutter when you back off throttle is not too big a deal and is not uncommon of a turbo. However the lower frequency noise while under certain light to medium loads is compressor surge.
This is not such a good thing, I am in the process of trying to educate nissan service on what the issue is.
On my first complaint of the issue they swaped the tail shafts and front left drive shaft even after i test drove with the tech and explained it was Turbo related.
To me turbo noise and drive line noise are two very different things and easily diffirentiated.

I want to know if any one else out there is having this issue?
If so did nissan solve it and how.
I think i have the case narrowed down to a couple of things.

This is a link to what the noise sonds like and about how it is replicated in my Navara D40 Please note the vid is obviously not a Nav but its the closest example i have to show you.
YouTube - Weird sounds from my 2000 F350 7.3TD-maybe the wastegate?
 
If you're getting surging, there might be something wrong with the variable vane controller. It might also be as simple as your intake pipe collapsing a bit, restricting airflow (block a vacuum cleaner and its rpm rises).

True surging (overboosting) can cause damage. I'd get it checked.
 
just check the vac pipes and leads to the controller are all connected properly to.
 
krunchi said:
Hi Guys,

New to the forum, picked up my brand new 2010 ST navara TD 6 weeks ago.
The Car has had a good run in from QLD to VIC and now has 6k on the clock.

Problem i am having is after the first 1k the car developed a turbo flutter when under certain light to medium loads and you back off the throttle.
This has gotten more and more since.

As well as this i also get he same sound but slower frequency while driving.
The Flutter when you back off throttle is not too big a deal and is not uncommon of a turbo. However the lower frequency noise while under certain light to medium loads is compressor surge.
This is not such a good thing, I am in the process of trying to educate nissan service on what the issue is.
On my first complaint of the issue they swaped the tail shafts and front left drive shaft even after i test drove with the tech and explained it was Turbo related.
To me turbo noise and drive line noise are two very different things and easily diffirentiated.

I want to know if any one else out there is having this issue?
If so did nissan solve it and how.
I think i have the case narrowed down to a couple of things.

This is a link to what the noise sonds like and about how it is replicated in my Navara D40 Please note the vid is obviously not a Nav but its the closest example i have to show you.
YouTube - Weird sounds from my 2000 F350 7.3TD-maybe the wastegate?
Click to expand...

Now that you mention it, I tend to get the same noise in my 2010 ST as well. I have not done anything about it yet as I wanted to see if it would change as I have driven the car in as much. But I may give my local dealer a call, Book my Nav in and see what comes of it.

Does you flutter tent to come on at abour 2000-3000rpm on light throttle/accelerartion?
 
Yes the flutter/surge comes on under light throttle in that rpm range. More noticable on certain roads and traffic onditions, i get proper flutter when i back off the throttle too under lght to medium loads. Under full boot all works ok.

Please report back what your nissan dealer says. Nissan australia claim it to be normal, worth noting the service dept nissan tech said he has never heard another Nav make this sound. They check the tail shaft and front left drive shaft cause they where nto certain it was turbo. You can forgive the service guys for not being sure it was turbo cause unless ur familia or around modified performance turbo cars you could mistake certain turbo noises for other things.
 
If it it going into an area of the compressor map that produced surge like in the vid I would be a bit concerned, dunno that it is heavy enough to hammer the bearings out of the core but it would certainly not be doing it any good. On backing off the throttle I would not be too concerned (Although that vid is the first time I have actually heard a deisel go into surge, I have never heard it on my R51, only a few odd sounds if you get it into boost at a standstill (Auto) and then come off the throttle, but they seem to be on the turbine side as it is noise from the exhaust tip.

You would think that they would have the compressor well enough matched to the engine to keep it out of the surge area of the map throughout the engines operating range so something significant would have to be going on to get it consistantly.

As much as I like the sound of compressor surge (The car in my avatar sounds like an enraged pigeon in some situations) I would find it prettty odd in a deisel ute.
 
Its the one just befoe the 140kw, i think it is a march 2010 build.

The Bluester, i too have had 2 rb25 tubro r33 skylines as ameture drag cars and i know the enraged pigeon sound in those cars, its awseom :)

I have a diagram of the engine control system for the d40.
I put it dont to some thing causeing the butterfly on the air intake control valve to close.
this would bsically act like a throttle body on a petrol car and cause flutter.
 
the butterfly should be only used on shut down only. otherwise hook a light or vac guage to the solenoid and see if it activates when the noise happens.
sometimes the butterfly are used as an over boost control.
 
Tweak'e , thanks for the idea, might need to get the thing on the dyno to watch what its doing and hook up a vac guage.
I think nissans stance is i have lots of warranty wait till some thing breaks cause we have no fing idea how to fix it.
 
krunchi said:
Yes the flutter/surge comes on under light throttle in that rpm range. More noticable on certain roads and traffic onditions, i get proper flutter when i back off the throttle too under lght to medium loads. Under full boot all works ok.

Please report back what your nissan dealer says. Nissan australia claim it to be normal, worth noting the service dept nissan tech said he has never heard another Nav make this sound. They check the tail shaft and front left drive shaft cause they where nto certain it was turbo. You can forgive the service guys for not being sure it was turbo cause unless ur familia or around modified performance turbo cars you could mistake certain turbo noises for other things.
Click to expand...

Yeah spot on, although I have not heard it since I did the EGR mod. I went for a spin at lunchtime and could not get the sound to reproduce. Think this would affect it much?

If I get a chance I might have a play around & take the blank out & see if the sound returns.
 
Cam, your observation makes some sense. Under full acceleration, the EGR valve is closed, so that exhaust gases are not passed into the intake manifold. The only time the EGR valve is open, really, is between idle and full load - which means "light to medium".
 
CAM500,

You might be on to some thing there.
Makes sence if the EGR is open and the flow is pushing/upsetting the turbo pressure enough it would make that sound.
I was leaning more towards the airintake butter fly in what you would call the throttle body on this engine.

Cam if you get a chance to test that EGR idea id really appreciate what you find out.
Also no biggy if you dont get around to it, i dont expect ya to pull apart ya truck as it aint broke.

Cheers
 
Alrighty, back from my test drive with the nissan tech and the data logger.
Replicated the issue on the motoway that also induces the car to slightly kick/rock whiel the surge noise comes it. Noticed on the lap top logger the airflow metere going up and down in volatage likle crazt so it was reading some fluctuations at the same time as noise comes in.

And to top it off today at 7pm the oil low light came on and the car is right now being towed back to nissan. I checked the oil at after the first 1k instpection wher ei speciifed an oil change to be on teh pedantic safe side, level was above the high mark, now 7 thousand kays later and the oil is below half way. My guess is the compressor surge has put a lot of strain on the turbo shaft and oil is now intering the inlet side and into the intake. Id bet money if i took the inlet pipes off i would find a considerable amount of oil in the intercooler.

Going back to nissan to demab money back, too many problems with this shit box in so little time. Looks like the reputation of unreliability int eh old days is still true.
 
Okay quick update.

After all the crazyness witht he dealer.
The dealer and Nissan tech agree i have an issue they have never seen on any other navara.
They went to the effort of video taping the symptoms after Nissan Australia
deemed the syptoms normal after getting data log information.

The Ford f350s that have this issue only resolve it by chaning the compressor wheel and or ported housing.

I dont know what else to do? 3 times to nissan australia and each time they tell me its normal. They told me its normal for my Nav to compressor surge and to rock and kick in time with the surge oscilation on the highway, try putting up with that for touring let along a 10 min trip down the highway.
In this day and age of motoring i am appalled at Nissan.

On thing is for sure, ill never buy another Nissan and i will go out of my way to tell all my friends the experience i have had.
 
I'd be appalled too, absolutely, with a response like that.

I would be extremely interested to find out if blocking the EGR resolved the issue for you. If you're in the Newcastle area, I can do that for you and we can take it for a run.
 
Ok Gents, just an update on my behalf. I finally was able to reproduce the flutter with the EGR but not to the same extent as I had initially had heard without the blank in. So I have called Nissan and have it booked in this Wednesday and I will also report to them what has happened with Krunchi (as mine is a March 2010 ST as well).

I took out the EGR blank yesterday & i found the following:
1. A definite lag in boost as compared to having the blank in. With the blank in their was a significant increase in turbo spool earlier.

2.A substantial increase in exhaust black soot when punching through second gear.

3. Flutter return – only once vehicle was really warm and after the had either worked hard between speed humps on and incline or say between roundabouts where the vehicle has to sit between 2nd and 3rd gear. This could confirm Old Tony’s theory that the intake pipe collapsing a bit / restricting airflow as the pipe get warm and soft.

I will give you all an update after Wednesday.

Cheers
Cam
 
Hey OldTony,

Thanks for the offer mate of the EGR but im in Brissy.
Maybe you can help me with which blanking plate adnw here to buy it from.

CAM
Please let me know how you go with the dealer.
MY dealer is sending me something in writing stating nissans response of this being normal.
To have a winge again i took my car 10k down teh highway and with the surge/flutter the car studders/rocks as a result when the noise comes on.
Just not good enough, how can they say thats normal and expect you to do a 1000k drive across the state.
Enough winge, Cam so your observations are with the blanking plate in there seems to be no flutter or on load surge/flutter noise?
BTW i managed to get a short vid of the noise in my NAV, just dont seem to be able to upload vids on this site.
 
CAM500 does yours get a low frequency flutter simliar to a choo choo train lol
Try driving under light 1/4 pedal from stationary let the speed build to about 70.
Or at about 100-110 on the nissan speedo on a long streach of highway constant light load.
 

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