Lead Crystal Batteries - better than Lithium?

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JLA

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Has anyone tries Lead Crystal batteries for caravan or camper.
It is an AGM battery but somehow different.

Key benefits:
Like AGM has fast charge.
Can be regularly discharged down to 20% and lower without any loss of capacity.
High current discharge capable - probably easy to find one that can double as emergency start battery.
Lasts up to 18 years.
Works with existing AGM chargers and management systems. Lithium requires specialised chargers.
Regular discharge down to 80% = 6,000 cycles possible.
That's 16 years is done every day
Regular discharge down to 20% = 1,600 cycles possible.
That's 4.5 years is done every day

A guess: Because AGM should only go down to 80% but Lead Crystal can go down to 20%, perhaps one Lead Crystal (100A/H) can replace two AGM's of the same size.
Cost of one 100A/H Lead Crystal = $500 Cost of two AGM's (each 100A/H) = $500

lead-crystal-performance.png
 
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This is new to me. The main attraction of lithium for me has been depth of discharge and longevity. Size and weight has been something that I have been factoring in. Maybe I need to rethink?
 
The chart isn't 100% accurate. Some AGMs (and I know for certain, because I have a D31A Optima in my tub) can discharge at 900 amps - more than enough to start the car. They say "Lithium" but don't distinguish between Lithium Polymer (dangerous) and Lithium Iron Phosphate (safe). LiFePO4 is also capable of 100% depth of discharge and some places are claiming 10 year lifespans with warranties of 5 years and up for LiFePO4. LiFePO4 is also much lighter.

The challenge with new technologies like these is making them work with equipment designed for older technology. Flooded/gel/AGM all have one thing in common - they charge to the same level, they discharge to the same level, the same voltage on the battery means the same thing - because the underlying tech is identical. Charge rates might differ because you need to be more careful with gel, but essentially the tech is the same.

Bring in something like LiFePO4. It's not lead in an acid bath any more. The chemical reactions that produce the electrical power are different. As a result, LiFePO4 batteries maintain a near constant 13V from full until they're depleted, then they just stop. Your voltmeter needs to be replaced by a coulomb meter, that measures the amount of power that's flowed through.

That's not the end of the new tech on its way, and the next 5 years are going to be very interesting from a power storage point of view. I'm going to sit on my AGMs for now - I have two, the Optima D31A in the tub and a FullRiver 120Ah AGM in the caravan. I also have cost to consider - in February I retired, although I'm now working again (earning less than the current unemployment benefit, but it's better than sitting on my ass and waiting for someone else to hand me some money).
 
Agreed there are a couple of errors in the chart above. I too use a hi-crank AGM battery.

The significant advantages of Lead Crystal compared to AGM:

1/ Half the weight of AGM:
Because of excellent discharge depth (80% versus 20%) on Lead Crystal can do the work of at least two standard AGM's. If you now have two AGM's the one Lead Crystal battery will do at least the same. (to be verified, this is just my assumption at the moment).

2/ Cost of ownership is much less:
(a) only need one instead of two AGM's.
(b) Lead Crystal lasts many years longer
1,600 discharge cycles down to 20%. AGM might do a couple of dozen if lucky. This means Lead Crystal will last much longer than AGM.

3/ Same chargers as AGM:
No additional costs for new DC to DC or 240V chargers.

Lead Crystal compared to Lithium:
Lead Crystal and Lithium share many advantages

1/ Lithium requires expensive charging, battery management equipment.
Lead Crystal uses standard AGM chargers.


Estimated cost to upgrade from AGM:
To Lead Crystal $500 to $1,000
To Lithium $3,00 to $5,000
 
I've been doing a bit more research on these Lead Crystal batteries.

If you need two AGM's you can run with just one Lead Crystal battery.

If you take a pair of 100A/H AGM's down to 60% or if you take a single 100A/H Lead Acid down to 20% then you get the same energy out of each system. That is a pair of AGM's function the same as a single Lead Crystal.
BUT
AGM's keep a large capacity in reserve if required in an emergency. The Lead Crystal does not as it has been discharged to almost flat.

Engine Start:
A 100A/H Lead Crystal battery can put out up to 1,000amps which would start a V8 diesel. Not recommended to use one for engine starts but OK occassionally. The battery poles are small so the connections need to be good before starting. Currently Lead Crystal are being trialled for engine starting as the primary engine battery.

I am told that there is only one manufacturer of Lead Crystal batteries and it is said that there are fakes around. A Lead Crystal battery needs to have the Lead Crystal logo and also a Betta Batteries label.
 
just been looking into this myself.
one issue is what your using on it. trouble is the voltage drop. what gear can still run at much lower voltage. often they will fault or low voltage protection kicks in.
running some gear on low voltage will burn it out.
to make full use of the battery will require a wide voltage boost regulator. ie some led ones will run on anything from 6 volts to 32 volts.

the only advantage i can see at the moment is ability to charge up fast and recover from being dead flat. ie battery been in storage for years or left your lights on.
 
Please refer to the PDF on page 24
http://leadcrystalbatteries.com/media/wysiwyg/Usermanuals/User-Manual-Lead-Crystal-Batteries-ENG.pdf
Hope I understand it correctly but here goes:
Assume a 100A/H Lead Crystal battery
I can pull 10 amps for 10 hours before it is flat at about 11.5V
But if I pull 10 amps out of it for 9 hours I still have 12.0V (refer to discharge curve).

I have heard it said also - about the voltage drop but you can get 90% of rated capacity out of the Lead Crystal without the voltage dropping below 12volts.
I understand what you are saying about voltage drop but don't agree with your assumptions.
Jaycar has a low voltage dropout kit where you can setup the dropout voltage to suit yourself. If it was set to 12v that would allow for 90% discharge.
At 80% capacity (a better target) the drop out should be about 12.2Volts
You would then have:
The Lead Crystal battery would recharge 1,600 times.
The voltage would not go below 12.2 Volts when the Jaycar cutout would kick in.
You would have discharged by 80%, that is 20% left.
 
Lead Crystal
Lead Crystal 100A/H discharge down to 20%. Will charge back up 1,660 times.
The useable capacity is 80A/H

AGM
Let's say you take your AGM battery 100A/H down to 60%. It will last several years.
The usaeable capacity is only 40A/H or half of a Lead Crystal.

Let's say we need a useable capacity of 80A/H
Lead Crystal - Use a single 100A/H battery (33KG)
Or
AGM - Use a pair of 100A/H batteries (66Kg)

For the same useable capacity Lead Crystals are half the weight and will last at least twice as long.

COST over 8 years for useable capacity of 80A/H

Lead Crystal one battery, lasts 8 years $500

AGM battery, lasts four years, will need 4 batteries ($350 x 4) = $1440

LEAD CRYSTAL ARE HALF THE WEIGHT AND ONE THIRD OF THE COST OF AGM's
 
just looking at the graph in the pdf. looks like a reasonable discharge curve.
most cutoff's are around 11-10v and the battery is almost exhausted by that point.
 
This how I read that chart:
After 8 hours of putting out 10 amps continuously the voltage is about 12.2V. The battery is discharged by 80% an is down to 20%. STop there , no more discharge.

It's not flat until putting out 10 amps for 10 hours, then it's about 11.5 volts. 100% discharged, you don't want to go this far.
 

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This how I read that chart:
After 8 hours of putting out 10 amps continuously the voltage is about 12.2V. The battery is discharged by 80% an is down to 20%. STop there , no more discharge.

It's not flat until putting out 10 amps for 10 hours, then it's about 11.5 volts. 100% discharged, you don't want to go this far.

11.5v is not 100% discharged. i would guess theres another 1/2 hr running in it.
i depends on what your running and if you have a low voltage disconnect or the gear just faults.

but from what i can can gather one of the selling points of these is the ability run to dead flat without failing.
the question is, is it any better than say an AGM battery or a normal battery thats fitted with low voltage cut off.

on the surface of it the advantage of these is being able to take abuse from deep discharge and quick recharge.
eg someone forgetting to turn the lights off on the ute, or spotlight battery where you run them until they are flat.
 
The point of stopping at 20% charge was to minimise battery damage.
Take it down to 80%, you get over 6,000 charge cycles.
At 20% you only get 1,660 cycles.
At 0% (not recommended) who knows what you would get, perhaps only a hundred??

Of course 0% for AGM, you might only be able to do that several times before wrecking the battery.

The quick recharge is great as it minimises generator time.
 
It's the same for any battery based on lead for the chemical reaction. Not all of the newer technologies (not available yet) will be better either. Some of the recent tech is quite scary - LiPo for instance. Fantastic amount of power but a slight mistreatment and they light themselves on fire. Can anyone spell "Samsung" ?

Lead crystal is at least based on decades old and very thoroughly tested tech. That's why I'm waiting a few years before leaping into the new stuff - I want someone else's pocket to catch fire, not mine!!
 

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