lockers

just trying to understand lockers
cant quiet work out.. wtf is the difference between regular LSD in my D22, and aftermarket lockers? why are they better for four wheel driving?

cheers

LSD does what the name says....they slip. fine for light stuff they will grab enough to work but give them a boot full of throttle they will slip.
compared to a locker which stays locked regardless.

also LSD is open until there is a difference between the wheels but lockers are locked always. a LSD will spin one wheel a bit before it starts to bite which means you can loose grip as you take off.

for light-medium 4x4 use LSD rear and locker in front is the way to go. for heavy 4x4 use locker front and rear is required.

Hey mate check out ARB Air Lockers & Accessories | ARB 4x4 Accessories » Products » that bascically explains what they are all about.

tweak'e said:

LSD does what the name says....they slip. fine for light stuff they will grab enough to work but give them a boot full of throttle they will slip.
compared to a locker which stays locked regardless.

also LSD is open until there is a difference between the wheels but lockers are locked always. a LSD will spin one wheel a bit before it starts to bite which means you can loose grip as you take off.

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i thought that a visciuos lsd box did this, and an LSD box was always locked.

If your serious about 4 wheelin lsd is crap and they can wear out so a lot of the time you single spin. Its happened to me with the first diff i had.

To put it simply, a limited slip diff (LSD) allows the wheels to turn at different rates.

A locker locks both wheels together so that they both turn at the same rate.

jap55s said:

i thought that a visciuos lsd box did this, and an LSD box was always locked.

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all LSD's slip. if it locks solid its a locker. LSD slips so it gives smooth takeup which is required for on road driving. auto lockers can be a bit abrupt ie lock suddenly, which can throw the rear sideways.

SOLID D22 said:

If your serious about 4 wheelin lsd is crap and they can wear out so a lot of the time you single spin. Its happened to me with the first diff i had.

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exactly.

if your nice and gentle LSD will "lock" , both wheels will turn evenly and not wear out the LSD so much. but serious 4x4 and gentle don't go together

thanx guys for this info, i now get it, much appreciated

i forgot a bit....

LSD don't lock much in reverse! can catch you out when doing muiti point turns etc.

You can shim up a LSD, (just did it to the rear of my pootroll) if you do it right it can be equivalant to a locker... well if you shim it too much it will turn into a locker, just a cheaper option to spending $1200 on an air locker. And there are situations where an auto locker is better than a constant cause it will disengage whereas an airlocker is constantly locked until you flick the switch... but like always there are horses for courses! My bro just fitted a locker to the back of his bosses D22, and he reckoned it made a crapload of difference over the LSD! But as far as a standard item i think the LSD in the navs are pretty good, compared to some of the crap on the market... never had a drama with mine either, and had it up some big rutts.

Actually you can go even further than shimming. Good limslips can be set up to be virtually open when cruising but coupled up as tight as a locker under power AND in reverse. But it tends to make them pretty unpleasant on the road as you end up with effectively a locked axle under conditions where you want a working diff.

A really agressively set LSD is good for a race car and a mechanical locker for serious 4WD work. Neither work very well in the other application.

the_bluester said:

...A really agressively set LSD is good for a race car ...

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mmm, can of worm's here

Why do v8 supercar's run a permanently locked diff?
LSD's are unpredictable.

Can O worms is a good description. I am no fan of the V8 Supercar category. I really dislike the things. I like my racing cars with more alloy and less pusshrods.

Essentially I would never want to put up with the more dull turn in and potentially unpredictable handling that are the typical result of a spooled diff.

Good (Read that as "Expensive") limslips are much more predictable. The likes of a KAAZ unit. The amount of locking action can be set to anything you would like and different between power and over run (The one I am getting set up for my track car will be pretty well locked solid under power and almost open on the over run. Predictable traction out of corners and good snappy turn into them.

The biggest benefits for me to a spooled diff is that it is cheap and it does not wear out.

I too have a kaaz lsd in my charger diff, best thing ever feels like a locked diff but it isnt, it works brilliant.
Iv been told by the diff builder lsd for race/track car and locked or full spool diff for a drag car.

Spooled or locked diff, causes terrible understeer, but still better than a single spinner. Ran CIG lockers in my Rally car for years because I couldn't afford a quaife or detroit. Had to use plenty of throttle to get it to turn in, which actually was quite fast, but ate tyres.

A good LSD (not the D40's) work ok until you start putting on bigger rubber, then they tend to wear quite quickly. Patrols LSD are probably the best around, shame they didn't put them in the D40

I recently had a drive of a mates historic sports sedan V6 Capri. It ran a locked diff and it was sort of fun to play with. Turn in without power and it was dull and woolly and just did not way to go around. Pick up the throttle and in it went, it was like a different car. You could play with it in fast sweepers (On a fun day rather than doing anything serious) and play around with the throttle opening through the corner and progressively cycle between pig understeer neutral handling and a bit of oversteer. But I want mine to turn in without having to charge in, throw it around and jump on the power to get it to steer.

At least the D40 has an LSD. My R51 only has an active brake LSD. Essentially just the traction control braking a spinning wheel to rein it in and get more torque going to the other one.

Solid D22, I would agree with that entirely, spools are great for drag cars and not a huge amount of use anywhere else. and limslips set up with steep ramp angles to really lock it up on power and over run would be not bad for real 4WD work but nothing like an air locker.

the_bluester said:

I recently had a drive of a mates historic sports sedan V6 Capri. It ran a locked diff and it was sort of fun to play with. Turn in without power and it was dull and woolly and just did not way to go around. Pick up the throttle and in it went, it was like a different car. You could play with it in fast sweepers (On a fun day rather than doing anything serious) and play around with the throttle opening through the corner and progressively cycle between pig understeer neutral handling and a bit of oversteer. But I want mine to turn in without having to charge in, throw it around and jump on the power to get it to steer.

At least the D40 has an LSD. My R51 only has an active brake LSD. Essentially just the traction control braking a spinning wheel to rein it in and get more torque going to the other one.
.

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Yep, locked diffs are fun, Could get the Datto to do donuts in my mums driveway, when it rained I use to pull in, bit handbrake and around she go. poor neighbors!

I'll sell you my LSD center if you like? Dana Trak Lock, don't think it can be shimmed though.

I am actually going to get my original diff redone (R200 so pretty similar to the front diff in the Nav) The 70's spec ones had more clutch plates and were more effective for longer. A couple of hundred dollars rebuilds it by removing the spacers that they fitted instead of clutch plates and replacing with plates. It brings them up the the competition spec. Then it is a matter of getting the ramp angles right to get it to lock up the way I want.

the_bluester said:

Essentially I would never want to put up with the more dull turn in and potentially unpredictable handling that are the typical result of a spooled diff.

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Actually I find the exact opposite. Spooled diff is locked all the time and you know exactly what its going to do. Say for example, you've braked a bit late and locked the rear brakes. You come off the brakes and....

Is the lsd going to kick in and when? not yet, not yet, not yet, and whoops locked and round you go?

the_bluester said:

Good (Read that as "Expensive") limslips are much more predictable. The likes of a KAAZ unit. The amount of locking action can be set to anything you would like and different between power and over run (The one I am getting set up for my track car will be pretty well locked solid under power and almost open on the over run. Predictable traction out of corners and good snappy turn into them.

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But when is the transition?

Ok.. Taken from the kaaz website.

"What is the difference between a 1, 1.5 way or 2 way Limited Slip Differential ( LSD ) ?

These numbers refer to the operation of the cams within the Limited slip differential. A 1 way diff only provides lock between the wheels whilst accelerating. In a 1.5 way diff, there is a degree of lock during braking, as well as under acceleration. The braking cam is half the size of the acceleration cam - hence the term 1.5 way. This provides a degree of improved balance during braking, but with less effect than a 2 way LSD.

In a 2 way LSD, the braking cam is the same size as the acceleration cam, providing more lock under braking. This provides the most stability and balance under braking, although it can induce some understeer in corners."

Notice the 'degree' term, this makes all the difference. Diff temperature affects its operation. Braking previously allows it to slip, means oil gets between the clutches, kicks in a bit later...Predictable...mmm no,

My kaaz you treat as a locked diff but without the tyre wear or axle breakage a locked diff would give you, thats whats good about the kaaz, there is no inbetween if its gona kick in or not like cheap lsd's on the market, it just works. Thats why its big bucks to buy!