Goverment insulation rebate. Thoughts ?

All those guys who have been electrocuted must have been in some dodgy homes or they put a nail or screw through some wiring.

I use to help a mate who is a sparky every friday do new installs or refits and from what we seen at times there is some dodgy dodgy wiring out there. Eg, earth wires used as switch wires etc.

I think the goverment should make every circuit in domestic be on a RCD.

Whats your thoughts, keen to hear what the sparky's on here thoughts.

Dave.

I only got my house insulated (with batts) 2 weeks ago, I'm glad I didn't procrastinate any longer!

I think the biggest mistake was letting any old Joe become an 'Installer' though I'm not sure what other options there where given the massive increase in demand.

I think the electrocutions have come from the foil insulation being stapled into existing electrical cables.

Good idea, extremely poorly executed.

We couldn't do the insulation at my place since we went the solar hot water system.

May still do the insulation but Ill do it myself after seeing the solar idiot break a few tiles on the roof.

Dave.

I believe one of the deaths was from heat exhaustion.I heard on the radio today up to ninety house fires can be linked to this scheme as well.
The government opened the doors with this scheme for dodgy opererators to florish,they then ignored a independant report that there was a good chance this would happen.
Who is to blame?

The government had the right idea - insulate houses, lower electricity needs and thereby reduce pollution etc etc.

Letting substandard operators in was the big mistake.

We had this stupid fool that barely spoke a word of English arrive at our house and tell me that he could put insulation in my roof for free, "you must be thanking Mr Rudd for this!".

I told him that we had R3 batts in the ceiling and sarking right under the tiles. We had sarking in all of the walls and R3 batts in the north and western walls. We had them build the house on an infill slab and as a result it's far better than anything he could dream about putting up in my ceiling.

"But it is free and you will thanking be Mr Rudd for this for many years to come".

Now what is it about this guy, I thought to myself, that makes him so stupid he can't piece together the letters N and O in his mind and make sense of them?

I told him I was busy (I was packing grease into the wheel bearings on the caravan) and offered to shake his hand and thank him "but I'm too busy right now, why not come back in a few hours" (it was about 6pm). He left.

If halfwits are installing this stuff, it's no bloody wonder they're being electrocuted and thank GOD they hadn't gotten around to my house, because I don't want to be fishing dead foreign labourers out of my roof.

Mr Midnight Oil is only guilty of two things:

1) Forgetting to require mandatory minimum IQ of at least double digits for the installers; and

2) Alopecia.

I reckon he ought to go kick the heads in of the public servants that forgot to mandate qualifications for the installers. That's the door that let the idiots in, and in they went.

In a way, maybe we should be thankful. They've just identified where the idiots are, maybe someone should go around there with a gun and do the gene pool a favour.

Dave said:

We couldn't do the insulation at my place since we went the solar hot water system.

May still do the insulation but Ill do it myself after seeing the solar idiot break a few tiles on the roof.

Dave.

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Dave there should be some very cheap Batts around now, might be better off buying them from one of the installers for bugger all and doing it yourself.

i was at a mates down the road where these 3 indian guys rocked up in a ford laser bomb with a traler full of ins batts and said we can install this for free today...we were like wtf...he didnt book it or anything...so they went to the next house and we assumed they asked the same thing...pretty much going around houses with decent roof pitch and try to pull a scheme...hahaha unbeliveable

Hi,
I'm a sparky running my own business and I have plenty of thoughts on this topic.
Firstly, I will never (and now a company policy) get in a roof space without isolating the whole property first, should anyone else feel like getting in their own roofspace i suggest you do the same.
Problems with wiring arise largely from modifications of old systems without damaging wall finishes etc, I belive a large cause of electric shock in a domestic environment is caused by people adding onto what was previously installed, and not ensuring the continuity of the earth, a prime example of this is where the old VIR cabling was replaced to light switches, the existing conduit has been left in place which typically pokes up about 25mm higher than the ceiling joists, and when the switch cabling is installed can easily be trodden on, cutting into the insulation of the cable and rendering the conduit (and anything conductive touching it) live, another prime way of ballsing it up is to replace a section of the circuit with new cabling and not get the earthing right.
Now i'm about to get contraversial, in my opinion Australia has a terribly lackadaisical approach to the standards to which they teach tradespeople, please jump in and tell me to eff off if you have other views, but I believe the standards which electrical tradespeople are taught are totally substandard, the methods of electrical testing & certification (I know because I had to re-do a lot of my qualifications when i moved over here) are behind what I was doing in the UK 10 years ago, by at least 20 years. My argument, and believe me I like to spruik my opinion, is that unless you cannot absolutely guarantee you work is safe, it doesn't get energised.
Sorry if this should have been put in the "have a rant" section, but I am pretty fed up with following cowboys into jobs, fixing things that have been done badly and being labelled as 'overpriced'.
The insulation installers are generally just trying to take advantage of the oportunity to make a quick buck, can't fault them for that, but for christs sake take responsibility for your own actions, especially when they may endanger someone elses life.
New Page 2 if anyone needs an installation inspection.

Rich

You are right about the training given to tradesmen mate, it is really up to the company hiring the apprentice to teach them what they feel is relevant (generally only what they need to know at that workplace) They do get a little bit of cross section training at college but it is pretty basic.

I think it really comes down to the individual on whether or not they really want to learn more or not. Sadly the ones who don't, still continue on to work as tradesmen.

Matt76 said:

I think it really comes down to the individual on whether or not they really want to learn more or not. Sadly the ones who don't, still continue on to work as tradesmen.

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You couldn't be more right, it is amazing how many clowns call looking for jobs, I think my ad should say "no idiots".

Another problem with the rebate is that alot of the installers are quoting a minium of $1600 to do the job as they know this is how much they can get out of the government. Pre rebate these jobs may have been under a grand. Also with the abundance of work some have jacked up their prices because they can

justdrinkbeer said:

Hi,
but I believe the standards which electrical tradespeople are taught are totally substandard, the methods of electrical testing & certification

Rich

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In relation to training, I disagree totally with that comment in VIC anyway.
I suppose its why sparkies from other states cant sign certificates here in VIC.

Although, overall it comes down to greed, get in and get out regardless,
and when it comes down to it wether the sparky has a consience,

as for me i cant leave an installation unless its done to the relevent standards and tested correctly to the best of my ability as i have to put my name to it.

And then the worst thing to happen here in VIC was the selling off of the SECV and privatising them and electrical inspectors.

Sorry if this should have been put in the "have a rant" section, but I am pretty fed up with following cowboys into jobs, fixing things that have been done badly and being labelled as 'overpriced'.

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You orta try being a Maintenance Plumber/Gas Fitter then! That's another story.

Matt76 said:

Dave there should be some very cheap Batts around now, might be better off buying them from one of the installers for bugger all and doing it yourself.

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Not a bad idea, been thinking about insulation the last few weeks.

Dave.

Krankin said:

And then the worst thing to happen here in VIC was the selling off of the SECV and privatising them and electrical inspectors.

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That's not entirely true, I don't totally agree with selling off public assets but in this case the sale of the SECV saved countless numbers of jobs in this region. Sure there was many people who took voluntary redundancies from the power stations but those who stayed enjoyed higher wages and better conditions than the state government were ever going to provide. Many of those who took redundancies also went back to the power stations working as contractors, or for contractors, some of them were even back before their final cheques had cleared from the SECV. Selling off to private companies (although it would have been nice if those companies were Australian) also meant there was many small business's like myself who were able to quote on job otherwise reserved for large government approved (but not always better) companies from Melbourne or interstate.

On the insulation issue: A friend of mine works for a larger group of people doing this government insulation job, they are government funded and they employ and assist many people who otherwise wouldn't get a job. Every insulation job they have done in this area has a minimum of 4 guys on site and at all times 2 of them must be fully qualified sparkies. All jobs are checked and signed off by independent contractors and not one of their jobs has caused problems or not been signed off on. their biggest problem is that none of the building companies around here are willing to use their services for insulation because the big companies are getting their jobs done by the fly by night morons who are causing the problems.

I don't much care about insulation I've got both roof and wall batts in my house and have done for years and I don't care about the shit fight the pollies are making there is some companies out there doing the right thing by people yet once again all the media want to focus on are the bad stories. Sure I feel sorry for those who have had problems but that doesn't mean every story is bad.

One of the things about this scheme that I'm having trouble getting my head around is how many houses don't have insulation. I'm in Ballarat, where it can to -2 or -3 degrees in winter, and we usually have two or three days above 40 in summer. Just wouldn't be without insulation, given those extremes. We built our home 4 years ago and had 4.5 R insulation put in the roof, as well as double glazed windows etc.

From what I can see, there has been plenty of new insulation put on old insulation, and even cases of old insulation being removed, and then re-installed elsewhere. The whole thing has been a monumental cock-up, because the government was so desperate to spend money it didn't have to 'stimulate the economy'. Thing is, as others have mentioned, all these fly-by-nighters have come in, getting $1200 for every roof they do, and once the scheme was wound up, they would just crawl back under their rock.

Just out of interest, one of the four who died was a slightly intellectually disabled 19 year old, filling in for a mate who was crook. It was his first day on the job and he basically cooked in the roof cavity - it was 42 degrees that day. Another guy who was electrocuted was 16.

The guys doing the work had to have OH & S training, but no installation training,as long as they were working under the supervision of someone who had had the installation rraining. Just a disaster waiting to happen.

I was talking to guy from Melbourne the other day who had it put into his roof - he reckons it took three blokes 10 minutes to do it.

Once again in other states the laws may be different but here in Vic builders haven't always been required to put insulation into houses. I believe they are required now but back in the 80's we had to specifically request roof insulation be put in our house and even then the builder wouldn't include it in the cost we had to get the insulation mob ourselves and pay them directly.

Even back in 03 when this house was built the builder wouldn't put insulation in the roof of the garage despite it being under the same roof line. The cost of an extra 8m x 8m section of roofing insulation must have been minimal but he claims it was not needed therefore he wouldn't do it. Of course the wall insulation was something he wouldn't do as well, he had no problems with us doing it before the plaster went on but told us we couldn't put it anywhere there was a power point because it's not the plasters job to remove insulation before he put the points in.

In this area the mob I know of are only targeting houses of about 15 years old or more so there might have been some ruling about that long ago about builders needing to put insulation in but even so they aren't getting that much business and that was before all this shit storm blew up. Once the storm started rising is when they went to building companies and offered their services but most of them just fobbed them off because they have too many lucrative contracts with other companies.

KraftyPg said:

That's not entirely true, I don't totally agree with selling off public assets but in this case the sale of the SECV saved countless numbers of jobs in this region. Sure there was many people who took voluntary redundancies from the power stations but those who stayed enjoyed higher wages and better conditions than the state government were ever going to provide. Many of those who took redundancies also went back to the power stations working as contractors, or for contractors, some of them were even back before their final cheques had cleared from the SECV. Selling off to private companies (although it would have been nice if those companies were Australian) also meant there was many small business's like myself who were able to quote on job otherwise reserved for large government approved (but not always better) companies from Melbourne or interstate.

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This may well be the case down there in the "valley",

but concerning the topic of safety/ quality of workmanship and inspections all over Victoria to which I was refering to, its gone downhill.

Thinking I might get alot of the insulation off ebay.

Will check local to though.

Fibreglass better or poliyester ?

Dave.