Thoughts on "copy" accessories

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Just interested in a discussion...

What are peoples thoughts on "cheap copy" accessories? Without going into discussion about "I can't afford to buy ARB/TJM etc", do people believe we should buy cheap copies of "branded" products? And if so, where do we draw the line? each of us expects our intellectual property would be respected, that someone doesn't just blatantly rip off our products, so is this any different?

My reason for asking is that I get a little peeved when we have companies putting lots of research $ into developing good products, then they are shipped off overseas for copying, and produced by a myriad of different companies in a myriad of different factories, and brought in by Company X and sold at a much cheaper price than the original. The overseas rip offs haven't had to pay for the R&D, so why should they benefit from the design of the original?

I'll pick ARB because they are an easy target. Their gear costs a fair bit. But there are plenty of companies out there selling gear which "looks just like ARB stuff" for a fraction of the price. There are plenty of examples - bullbars, roof racks... There are LOTS of companies doing blatant rip-offs of the ARB designs, and selling a motza.

So what are your thoughts? Should we support the company that puts the money into R&D and keeps coming up with the new products, or should we support the companies which peddle the copies and really couldn't care less whether the market is going to be around next year?

I'll air my opinion up front - basically, I reckon if we don't buy original and reject the copies, then companies which actually DO the R&D and come up with the original products will stop doing so and find something else to do with their money.

Will be interested to see the responses.
 
We should make every attempt to spend money locally at locally owned and run companies but it is not always possible for a variety of reasons.
 
Companies like the above mentioned will still continue to make products and profits because they market themselves as a premium or exclusive product. For comparison, why would anybody buy a BMW over a Holden? Realistically there isn't much difference in the actual product, its just the markets perception because whether we like it or not, we are influenced by marketing and advertising. They spend a lot trying to convince the market they are targeting that they should pay the extra. There will always be a place for all classes of products, it's just business. So as TISM once said, "what are ya? Yob or wanker?" ie cheap stuff or premium? Where do you fit in?
 
Theres a massive difference between bmw and holden both technically and in quality but i do get your point and agree. I dont feel sorry for the big guys personally. Look back just five years ago when the cheapest winch bar was about 2500buck compared to now you pick one up for a grand. 1500 price difference on a product is a pretty huge margin for profit considering the guys selling them for a 1000 are still makimg profit.

If the big guys were fair most the little guys would have no reason to start up or would fail trying to start.
Just my 2cents.
One of the biggest killers these days is online shopping. Less staff massivly lower overheads, they smash bricks and mortar business everytime and because of that in years to come i think you will struggle to find any customer service anywhere.
 
If the big guys were fair most the little guys would have no reason to start up or would fail trying to start
Click to expand...

Yep, well said. It's all about selling to a particular market.

I guess what I meant by the BMW v Holden, was that even if there was a slight quality or technical difference, would the average joe off the street even be able to tell?
 
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Think that the cheaper companies have there place, as qqc said they've helped drive down the prices of the big boy (ARB) in the last 2 years since ironman have come alone. We used to pay over inflated prices while they had the monopoly. Two years ago I priced a ARB bullbar for my old D40 $2600, bought an ironman bar for $1500 instead. In January got a new ARB bar for $1900 for my new Nav. And quality on a lot of their products are pretty good now.
I like to support Australian company's when I can but, when they want me to pay $1000 for a product and I can get just as good of a product for $550 then I'm sorry but I got to do what's best for me and save money. And some thing are just as good if not better.
With canopies I bought a Alpha canopy sold through blues ute world and made in Thailand, and I think there better then the Nissan canopy (can't remember who makes them right now, only can hold 75kg) and just as good as carryboy, they aren't overly cheap but either. I've had two now, 1 on my first D22 & now the one on my D40's (holds 100kg).
 
Just be careful what you skimp on, take winches for instance, a cheap Chinese one is probably ok if you only need it once or twice but other things such as bow shackles you could be killed if one was to break and launch at the right angle...
 
I wonder where people buy their bars from? Roughly 14 years ago I bought a new winch-mount bar (ARB) for my TJ Wrangler costing a grand total of $1700. In 2002 when I was outfitting my Patrol (GU3), the colour-coded ARB bar cost $2000. 4 years ago the winch-mount ARB bar on my D40 (powder coat - not colour coded) cost $1780 (just dug out the invoice). I can only speak for my own experiences of course.

While I understand that there are differences of opinion regarding market and price points, I would only ask that people stay on-topic please. This was supposed to be a discussion about rip-of copies and whether we should support the companies that DO rip off others. This is not about companies that introduce a different product aimed at a different market sector (think for example cars - a Hyundai i30 is not marketed at the same people who would buy a Range Rover Vogue - they are different markets for different purposes, price is only factor).

An example of what I perceive as ripoff designs - why does an Ironman (standard) bar look virtually identical to an ARB bar? Only hypothesis of course, but is it because they are leveraging all the R&D that ARB have put into the product, including crash testing, to ensure it meets Aus standards? If these ripoff companies had to do their own crash testing and R&D, does anyone think they could make the product available at the same low price? And can companies "like" Ironman produce crash test data for all the barwork they produce? I know one bullbar company that can, but can they all?

Or what about "powerful 4x4" - why do their roof racks look virtually the same as an ARB product? Even down to the styling of the metal pressings on the vertical supports... Is it because "powerful 4x4" are a huge R&D shop and have determined through exhaustive testing that the design they have come up with (without looking at what others have put to market) is the best way forward? Or did they simply ripoff a product from one of the "big guys" because hey - it's what people buy, so lets photocopy it and make our own...

So on-topic, what are peoples thoughts?

I have it on reasonable authority that one of the things that has hammered TJM in recent years is the cost of R&D (things like crash-worthiness, airbag deployment, ADR compliance for pedestrian impact etc) is one of the major reasons they have drastically scaled back the number of bullbar designs available. An example of R&D costs hitting the bottom-line perhaps? ECB - another local manufacturer whose prices are regarded by some people as "premium", and who have been forced to scale back the number of design options available in order to keep in business.

One thing that really p!sses me off though - why can I buy a genuine ARB airlocker in the USA for less than the price of one in Aus, when they are made in Melbourne!!! (I won't rant on about the cheapo Chinese copies that have been hitting the market - even using replica ARB packaging...)
 
I believe they have a legitimate place and as mentioned keep the big boys honest. I know the cost of R&D and quality are including in things like ARB products, while cheaper copy companies take an existing design slightly modify it and resell it. This damages profit margins substantially for the big guys. But it also forces them to stay competitive.

To reply to the above post ie TJM taking a hammering due to the copies on the market. The ironman bar does resemble most other bullbars because the piece its self is a very difficult design to adjust with airbags ADR etc etc, I am not defending them and saying it isnt a blantent copy but its another factor to consider when comparing products. It doesnt actually give you many options on creating something new and unique as you are bound to the constraints of the fitting and regulations. But it does however give the bigger companies the opportunity a great selling point on the crash test data air bag certifications etc. Also while I appreciate the costs of R&D and meeting regulations, yes the initial start up cost of marketing a product is hefty but that cost is quickly redeemed when producing on a mass scale. I get your portion of the argument esp regarding companies taking a hammering due to being undercut on similar products but there was a time not long ago where they were also over priced with a stupid amount of inflation on RRP's. With no competition its the consumer that suffers, with too much competition it is the companies that suffer, but i'd rather have a regulated market that forces the bigger companies with the capacity to think outside the box and create quality products that sell for a reasonable price then a situation where they can offer anything they want as its the only option on the market and charge an arm and a leg.

There is a place for spending extra for quality on crucial items like bowshackles and recovery items but at the end of the day we all are grounded by our wallets capacity (or lack their of) so somtimes you fill in the gaps with affordable things.

One thing I hate seeing is the pissing contest for not being able to afford the best of the best esp in the 4wd scene. We all want to get out there and have fun and put money into our trucks to do so, take the ironman bullbar vs a tjm or arb one. Its going to do the same job, it might not be quite as resistant to impacts, it would be hard to know exactly if it would or not but its still going to do a lot more then not having one and i'd rather have a cheap one then none at all.

At the end of the day however, the bigboys do have the reputation of market quality and thus will get alot more customers in the door because of it.
 
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@ LthLDC - Agree with what you are saying re: p!ssing contests. I woudl MUCH rather be out on the track with someone who is driving a bog standard vehicle who KNOWS HOW TO DRIVE IT and uses solid techniques, than one who has all the gear, but no idea... Slightly different tangent on what you said, but still...

@ 180 - yeah, ECB do struggle a bit in the styling dept don't they. That being said, the majority of their work seems to come from "nudge bars" for mounting lights etc - not from "strike protection" bars.
 
They all look the same as they push the design and build process out to overseas companies that have the ability to pass on the designs with no negatove effects on them legaly and financially. They do it cheap so arb will use them again next time and there in backwards countrys where copyright etc os basically non existant.
On another note have you ever looked at the quality of workman ship/welds on a tjm bar compared to an ironman bar. Ironman far exceed tjm. Tjm bars are however usually built out of slightly thicker plate.
A mate has the job of painting color coded bars for all our local 4x4 companies and he was the one that pointed out to me the welds and and all round workman ship quality of the bars.
 
I think it does depend greatly on the item itself.

A non-crucial item or one that is easily maintained which can be sourced cheaply is something to seriously consider, in my books. However, for crucial components where safety or the very viability of the product is a concern, copies often don't come up to the mark.

A couple of examples:

I bought supposed 3T D-shackles for the chains on my caravan. They were half the thickness of the Hayman Reese ones and I have now replaced them with genuine ones, because if I *do* have a problem, I don't want to compound it by having that component fail when it's needed.

I have a genuine Airtec snorkel (branded by Nissan). It's been tested, they've been making the things for years. I could have bought a cheap Chinese copy only to find that the plastic is inferior and cracks under the harsh Australian sun (which a couple of people on this forum have discovered).

I have a genuine Nissan bullbar (which is an ARB commercial bar). I could have bought something else, but my bar has been made and tested here in Australia. I have confidence in the product, where a copy might be made of inferior materials or not welded as well and may not have been tested.

I have OME Dakar suspension and OME Nitrocharger Sports shocks. I could have bought inferior but the ARB stuff looked more solid than other brands I'd checked out. I have absolutely no complaints. I have tried Ironman suspension components and don't like them - they don't last.

So to the crux of the question: would I support an Australian company and reward them for doing the hard yards of R&D plus testing & certification? I have, and would again, for the components that I really need to rely on. In fact, if I buy another Navara, I won't get the Nissan bar, I'll go direct to ARB and get the Deluxe bar (etc).

I bought an Aldi winch. Made by some Chinese factory just like Ironman, Tigerz etc - but I don't rely on IT. The bow shackles (took me 4 goes to write that, I kept typing "shekels" dunno why) and straps are all ARB. I rely on those!
 
Old.Tony said:
I have a genuine Nissan bullbar (which is an ARB commercial bar). I could have bought something else, but my bar has been made and tested here in Australia. I have confidence in the product, where a copy might be made of inferior materials or not welded as well and may not have been tested.

In fact, if I buy another Navara, I won't get the Nissan bar, I'll go direct to ARB and get the Deluxe bar (etc).
Click to expand...

Well, unfortunately tony even ARB bars aren't all made here now, they are out sourced to factory's in Thailand. They do still have the factory in Vic but its not all done there.
&
Nissan don't have a "Nissan bar" anymore they are just ARB bars. Maitland Nissan don't even fit them themselves anymore, they just send the car down to ARB Newcastle to have them fitted.
 
Hi, I'm a new member, my names Daniel and I'm a navaraholic.
I just wanna shout out to someone on here that has made my Navara owning a while lot more pleasurable. And that person is old Tony :) over my time of forum searches i find wonderful advise and experiences from him. Cheers mate. I think I'm going to need a laptop instead of a smart phone to really get into chatting but I can't wait to join in and share.
 
Welcome to the forum, Seven. Just happy to help!

And thanks Brad, I'm really looking forward to the next outing with you too!

I thought I should add, too, that sometimes the copies aren't really just copies, they're improvements. I do prefer to buy something that's been tried and tested but if the company is just producing the same-old and a new manufacturer comes to market with something far better, I'll consider it. Research is valuable, forums are a great source of opinion - and I stress the word "opinion" quite heavily - and sometimes you just have to try it for yourself.
 

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