K
Bathurst time again.
- Thread starter Mick-J
- Start date
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Lexus makes a 5L V8 four door RWD sedan, the IS F, it only takes two matchsticks and some PVA glue and it's a Toyota badge, happy now??
I want to know what happens when petrol is $4.50/litre and sales of 5L V8s are insufficient to justify re-tooling for the next model?
I don't really think Toyota belongs either, I'd say competing in the supercars went the way of the TRD idea. Head office Japan flushed it down the gurgler during the global confidence crisis.
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Krankin
Guest
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Dave
Guest
The Last Commodore to leave the factory with a 5L was the VT series 1 so about 1998.
Ford would of been around there to.
Put the factory current motors in the V8 "Super"cars.
Dave.
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Krankin
Guest
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Dave
Guest
Yes but I was talking production cars.
Doesn't matter.
That engine rule sucks, put the factory engines in. Not some outdated motor.
Dave.
Doesn't matter.
That engine rule sucks, put the factory engines in. Not some outdated motor.
Dave.
K
Krankin
Guest
as far as i can see in the rules, the current block/heads can be used provided they dont exceed min/max specified dimensions in bore and stroke and to a max total of 5000cc.
For the sake of "parity", they produce specifications that say the engines must be within this small range of each other, the brakes must be this, you can only use windscreen wipers with one leg, blah blah blah. If I recall, they also had a maximum horsepower limit too.
That's the thing that irks me. Motor vehicle development is at a standstill while they have to limit themselves like that.
Take away the limits, introduce more players to the arena, and suddenly we see advances in the technology that translate into real-world benefits - eg more power from less fuel, as we've seen in engine development for decades.
The only reason why you'd stagnate the thing, define two teams with such simple descriptions "red vs blue" and ensure "parity" is if you were treating your audience like morons, as if they couldn't comprehend any more than two teams.
While I actually agree that some of the motorheads that are in the audience are little better than half-trained apes that can't fathom anything more complex than "will I pull with my left hand or my right?" there are a lot of people out there in the audience that have developed more than two brain cells and are fully capable of appreciating and enjoying some variety.
That the variety also gives us the technological advances spoken of earlier is an added bonus.
I find it distressing that we have to stagnate in order to pacify the vocal group that can't handle more than two sides.
That's the thing that irks me. Motor vehicle development is at a standstill while they have to limit themselves like that.
Take away the limits, introduce more players to the arena, and suddenly we see advances in the technology that translate into real-world benefits - eg more power from less fuel, as we've seen in engine development for decades.
The only reason why you'd stagnate the thing, define two teams with such simple descriptions "red vs blue" and ensure "parity" is if you were treating your audience like morons, as if they couldn't comprehend any more than two teams.
While I actually agree that some of the motorheads that are in the audience are little better than half-trained apes that can't fathom anything more complex than "will I pull with my left hand or my right?" there are a lot of people out there in the audience that have developed more than two brain cells and are fully capable of appreciating and enjoying some variety.
That the variety also gives us the technological advances spoken of earlier is an added bonus.
I find it distressing that we have to stagnate in order to pacify the vocal group that can't handle more than two sides.
Ford & Holden don't race because of a vibe, they race to sell cars. The same reason why Toyota would enter the comp if they wanted to.
You would get a rivalry from Toyota entering: Ford fans hate Holden, Holden fans hate Ford, Ford and Holden fans would hate Toyota
Anyone who thinks a V8 Supercar is remotely similar to what you purchase off the factory floor has rocks in their head anyway.
I couldn't give a rats about a badge, I follow Lowndesy because he's a local boy.
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KraftyPg
Guest
For most of you guys up there (you can be an exception because you moved up there) he's an adopted local. He was born Mexican and migrated so on behalf of Victorians I'm making a claim on him. (he will be so proud)
Queenslanders can have Bright, as a Moe boy he's done really well to get out but we still don't want him.
raywise
Member
Tony speaks the truth. 
Article from SMH in January stating the obvious, virtually no difference between Hold/Ford Supercars. I love the series, but if I stand back and think about it, then yes, cheering on Holden or Ford when they are nearly the same car? Stupid if you ask me.
But, thats how the category has been "dumbed down", and its here to stay.
Difference between Ford and Holden is purely academic
Article from SMH in January stating the obvious, virtually no difference between Hold/Ford Supercars. I love the series, but if I stand back and think about it, then yes, cheering on Holden or Ford when they are nearly the same car? Stupid if you ask me.
But, thats how the category has been "dumbed down", and its here to stay.
Difference between Ford and Holden is purely academic
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KraftyPg
Guest
The thing I find amazing is how many reporters are coming out with these stories now days. I know the story linked above is from Jan 2010 but this lack of difference has been creeping in for years yet there seems to be a new story every month from some journo stating the same thing with a different slant. They've either got nothing better to write about or they seem to want show us how clever they are to those people who haven't had an interest in the sport until recently.
Or maybe it's just the pissed off Ford badge man who's not getting enough work putting Ford badges on tin panels.
Or maybe it's just the pissed off Ford badge man who's not getting enough work putting Ford badges on tin panels.
DVR
Member
There are some very ROSE coloured glasses on this forum.
A quick history lesson on Touring car racing in Australia.
In the "Good old days" of Group C touring cars. Factory teams dominated. Full stop. whether it was FORD HOLDEN JAG MAZDA or NISSAN (remember George Fury's Bluebirds?) All Cars that every Australian could relate to and see on our roads. Ultimately though HDT dominated and the powers that be felt they could improve on the formula.
Enter Group A.
Group A had good intensions and started out OK but it was an international formula and again factory cars, but this time ones that you never saw on Aussie roads started to win with regular monotony. Enter the cosworth Sierra, specifically developed by FORD Europe to counter the BMW M3, NOT the Aussie V8 which wasn't competitive and no one outside AUSSIE knew about them anyway.
It got so if you didnt drive of you had No hope at all.
Good GOD, BROCK himself even drove one for a while.
Then entered GODZILLA. The NISSANS were built to counter the Sierras. Not the Aussie V8.
No one out side of Australia care anything about our local cars.
The bottom line was the crowds abandoned Aussie touring car racing.
Thats why AVESCO was formed. To return to what AUSSIES loved, LOCAL V8's. And guess what? The crowds came back and its grown every year since then.
I agree that the 2 horse race could do with a shake up. Like NASCA, The rules need to be revamped to allow more manufacturers. But I DO NOT want it to return to the days of Group A where cars I don't recognize and never see on Australian roads rule the front half of the grid. It took about 10 years before I saw my first street R33 and another few to see a genuine GTR. I've NEVER seen a Sierra at all let alone a Cosworth!
A quick history lesson on Touring car racing in Australia.
In the "Good old days" of Group C touring cars. Factory teams dominated. Full stop. whether it was FORD HOLDEN JAG MAZDA or NISSAN (remember George Fury's Bluebirds?) All Cars that every Australian could relate to and see on our roads. Ultimately though HDT dominated and the powers that be felt they could improve on the formula.
Enter Group A.
Group A had good intensions and started out OK but it was an international formula and again factory cars, but this time ones that you never saw on Aussie roads started to win with regular monotony. Enter the cosworth Sierra, specifically developed by FORD Europe to counter the BMW M3, NOT the Aussie V8 which wasn't competitive and no one outside AUSSIE knew about them anyway.
It got so if you didnt drive of you had No hope at all.
Good GOD, BROCK himself even drove one for a while.
Then entered GODZILLA. The NISSANS were built to counter the Sierras. Not the Aussie V8.
No one out side of Australia care anything about our local cars.
The bottom line was the crowds abandoned Aussie touring car racing.
Thats why AVESCO was formed. To return to what AUSSIES loved, LOCAL V8's. And guess what? The crowds came back and its grown every year since then.
I agree that the 2 horse race could do with a shake up. Like NASCA, The rules need to be revamped to allow more manufacturers. But I DO NOT want it to return to the days of Group A where cars I don't recognize and never see on Australian roads rule the front half of the grid. It took about 10 years before I saw my first street R33 and another few to see a genuine GTR. I've NEVER seen a Sierra at all let alone a Cosworth!
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Dave
Guest
I seen a Ford Sierra a few weeks ago a few km's from my place.
I wanna see them using the current engines. The last car to use the Ford 9 inch was probably the XD Falcon. Those gearboxes are race designed gearboxes.
How about developing stronger components for road cars.
The factory diffs are weak as piss.
Dave.
I wanna see them using the current engines. The last car to use the Ford 9 inch was probably the XD Falcon. Those gearboxes are race designed gearboxes.
How about developing stronger components for road cars.
The factory diffs are weak as piss.
Dave.
DVR
Member
So it only took you what? 20 something years to see a Sierra? Let me know when you see a Cosworth.
My point is that when the track is full of foreign cars, even fast ones, the Australian race fan isn't realy, deep down, interested in it. The whole Group A fiasco proved that. Even the revamped Group A formula "TOCA" only lasted 2 years (I think) in Australia before it was abandoned and that was actually pretty good.
Aussie Tourers should be just that. AUSSIE TOURERS!! With 4 doors, Preferably V8's and on our roads. Like it was in it's heyday, the 70's.
I defy anybody to tell me that the classic race on Sunday wasn't FANTASTIC. Monaros, Falcons, Chargers, Comaros, hell I even saw a PACER!! All cars that were on our roads and we probably even knew someone who's Dad OWNED one.
That what I'm talkin about.
My point is that when the track is full of foreign cars, even fast ones, the Australian race fan isn't realy, deep down, interested in it. The whole Group A fiasco proved that. Even the revamped Group A formula "TOCA" only lasted 2 years (I think) in Australia before it was abandoned and that was actually pretty good.
Aussie Tourers should be just that. AUSSIE TOURERS!! With 4 doors, Preferably V8's and on our roads. Like it was in it's heyday, the 70's.
I defy anybody to tell me that the classic race on Sunday wasn't FANTASTIC. Monaros, Falcons, Chargers, Comaros, hell I even saw a PACER!! All cars that were on our roads and we probably even knew someone who's Dad OWNED one.
That what I'm talkin about.
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Krankin
Guest
K
Krankin
Guest
There are some very ROSE coloured glasses on this forum.
The bottom line was the crowds abandoned Aussie touring car racing.
Thats why AVESCO was formed. To return to what AUSSIES loved, LOCAL V8's. And guess what? The crowds came back and its grown every year since then.
its nice to know there is another "half trained ape" on this forum with me.
.
K
Krankin
Guest
Tony speaks the truth.
Article from SMH in January stating the obvious, virtually no difference between Hold/Ford Supercars. I love the series, but if I stand back and think about it, then yes, cheering on Holden or Ford when they are nearly the same car? Stupid if you ask me.
But, thats how the category has been "dumbed down", and its here to stay.
Difference between Ford and Holden is purely academic
I wasnt aware this was top secret information meant to be kept from us knuckle dragging bogan holden or ford V8 supercar fans.
