Biodiesel
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maddogrc
Member
had a talk to the nissan dealer today whilst picking up an oil filter for the nav @ $25 bucks, not bad?
the service guy said that the boss with his big f250 went touring and after running bio diesel it wouldnt get over 70km/h.
also i was told that biodiesel is AGAINST the warranty according to nissan and also i've been told biodiesel will STOP your car, and that they have towed many a vehicle that ran biodiesel.
interesting stuff...
the service guy said that the boss with his big f250 went touring and after running bio diesel it wouldnt get over 70km/h.
also i was told that biodiesel is AGAINST the warranty according to nissan and also i've been told biodiesel will STOP your car, and that they have towed many a vehicle that ran biodiesel.
interesting stuff...
K
KraftyPg
Guest
While I don't doubt any of that madddogrc it's not just bio that dealers will void warranty over. If they can prove the diesel you put in caused problems they will void warranty, just like you could go in on a warranty claim that isn't about the engine and they may not ever know you had bio in it.
I know thats not the point your making but with it mentioned so often that dealers void warranty if bio is used people ought to be aware that the same warranty can if the situation is right be void with genuine diesel.
I know thats not the point your making but with it mentioned so often that dealers void warranty if bio is used people ought to be aware that the same warranty can if the situation is right be void with genuine diesel.
maddogrc
Member
yeah of course there are many a circumstance where the dealer will void warranty over an issue and might not even have a clue that something already warranty voiding is causing the issue.
thats the thing with nissan, and i guess any company, you have to prove that the bio diesel DIDN'T cause the issue whilst nissan dont have to. it's stated in the manual that bio diesel is not to be used, so i guess with that statement they have the right to deny warranty instantly.
but thats what i heard today! also forgot to mention the reason they say bio diesel is a badie is because it just blocks the fuel filters and restricts flow to pretty much a stop.
thats the thing with nissan, and i guess any company, you have to prove that the bio diesel DIDN'T cause the issue whilst nissan dont have to. it's stated in the manual that bio diesel is not to be used, so i guess with that statement they have the right to deny warranty instantly.
but thats what i heard today! also forgot to mention the reason they say bio diesel is a badie is because it just blocks the fuel filters and restricts flow to pretty much a stop.
K
KraftyPg
Guest
I suppose a decent lawyer might be able to stop a warranty being voided by using Bio alone unless there was over whelming proof it caused the problem. I'm unaware of any case where such a thing was proven anyway but that doesn't mean it hasn't happened which is why I was wondering if the notification of over 5% only is state or federal law.
I wouldn't mind betting that with the ETS and all the other crap going on these days it wont be long before they suggest 10% Bio is ok without notification but it still doesn't help those people who often don't get a choice in what they can and can't fill up with.
Even in this area which is fairly well populated there is towns within a hour from here that only have one servo, if that servo is running a blend up to what they are allowed without notifying people and some cars have already had problems running the blend unbeknown to them they find themselves up to 100ks from a servo with the fuel they need and possible damage a warranty doesn't cover.
Tony's idea of listing companies and their blends is a good one but with so many other fuel depots around is there a true way of saying that all of one brand fuel is the same.
Less than two hours from Melbourne we have a fuel storage area locally owned but storing one of the leading brands, they buy in bulk from the supplier then that company ships and sells the fuel to local servos between here and the NSW border now I'm now saying they do this but what is to stop them getting the diesel with zero blend and then in their massive fuel stores here adding a blend up to 5% which they may not have to notify users of. You go from what could have been a brand you can trust in the city because its 100% diesel to a brand that is blended which is something you may be against in less than 2 hours of travel.
Now I personally know the assistant manager of the local company here because the company my wife works for deals with major amounts of diesel but in speaking with him he has suggested they don't add anything into the fuel and maybe the lack of signage at the pumps is an indication of this but can he truly be believed when we know that adding less than 5% will save his company more money in one year than most of us can dream about.
I wouldn't mind betting that with the ETS and all the other crap going on these days it wont be long before they suggest 10% Bio is ok without notification but it still doesn't help those people who often don't get a choice in what they can and can't fill up with.
Even in this area which is fairly well populated there is towns within a hour from here that only have one servo, if that servo is running a blend up to what they are allowed without notifying people and some cars have already had problems running the blend unbeknown to them they find themselves up to 100ks from a servo with the fuel they need and possible damage a warranty doesn't cover.
Tony's idea of listing companies and their blends is a good one but with so many other fuel depots around is there a true way of saying that all of one brand fuel is the same.
Less than two hours from Melbourne we have a fuel storage area locally owned but storing one of the leading brands, they buy in bulk from the supplier then that company ships and sells the fuel to local servos between here and the NSW border now I'm now saying they do this but what is to stop them getting the diesel with zero blend and then in their massive fuel stores here adding a blend up to 5% which they may not have to notify users of. You go from what could have been a brand you can trust in the city because its 100% diesel to a brand that is blended which is something you may be against in less than 2 hours of travel.
Now I personally know the assistant manager of the local company here because the company my wife works for deals with major amounts of diesel but in speaking with him he has suggested they don't add anything into the fuel and maybe the lack of signage at the pumps is an indication of this but can he truly be believed when we know that adding less than 5% will save his company more money in one year than most of us can dream about.
This is why the very first column is the region. From another discussion, we learned somewhere near the Nullabor, you've no choice but to buy 20% blend. I haven't included that detail because I don't know enough specifics to put the figure in - I'm waiting for the info to be volunteered by forum members.
I have done some research on various suppliers' web sites and have updated the initial post accordingly, so that post can become the quick-reference of where to buy or where alternative arrangements (eg extra fuel carried) may be needed. I also included the advice given by Nissan, as a reminder to us all - that Nissan aren't playing bastard with us, they recognise that sometimes, given the location and where we're going, we're left with little choice.
This thread isn't the ultimate answer. We'd need a web site dedicated to it, with staff running it and sorting through reports from travellers right across Australia. I don't want to run that resource, I just want to make a start. If that start means a list of suppliers and rough areas and what you're likely to find, then that's progress and I'm happy.
If this helps others, I'm even happier.
K
KraftyPg
Guest
I understand what your columns do etc but I'm completely open to a suggestion about how I can find out if the local distributor here is adding up to 5% when they don't have to list it and the assistant manager isn't going to make the comment if they were.
While I applaud the job you started I also felt it was viable to make people aware that 2 hours down the road from anywhere could mean a huge difference to things so it pays to be aware of the big story as well.
While I applaud the job you started I also felt it was viable to make people aware that 2 hours down the road from anywhere could mean a huge difference to things so it pays to be aware of the big story as well.
I'm going to take a stab that those fuel companies that explicitly state "Nil%" like BP Australia do are definitely not using biodiesel, and any company that refrains from making any statement may be using up to 5%.
Making that sort of assumption is safe ground, I think - and I might just update that first post to reflect this, if there's a small amount of consensus with my reasoning.
Making that sort of assumption is safe ground, I think - and I might just update that first post to reflect this, if there's a small amount of consensus with my reasoning.
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KraftyPg
Guest
You can add Gull WA to your list if you want to. Their official quote is
Gull BIO-D, a blend of up to 20% biodiesel and petroleum diesel
It's only available in WA (and NZ apparently) but there are people on that side of the country from what I hear.
Gull BIO-D, a blend of up to 20% biodiesel and petroleum diesel
It's only available in WA (and NZ apparently) but there are people on that side of the country from what I hear.
K
KraftyPg
Guest
Additional Note.
The Servo I was trying to think of in Mundrabilla WA is actually a SAFF (South Australia Farmers Fuel or just Australian Farmers Fuel). This company is predominantly in SA but due to further expansion with AFF is moving into all states with WA, Vic and NT currently operational.
I've seen reports that Mogas brought out SAFF some time ago and their website does not talk about Bio, or Bio blends however there is a pdf listing all the SAFF sites as of 2006 and it showed many using both bio unleaded and bio diesel. I can vouch for many of the ones in SA, Ouyen and Mundrabilla all selling bio unleaded and most selling bio premium diesel as of Nov/Dec last year but as to their percentages I don't remember
The Servo I was trying to think of in Mundrabilla WA is actually a SAFF (South Australia Farmers Fuel or just Australian Farmers Fuel). This company is predominantly in SA but due to further expansion with AFF is moving into all states with WA, Vic and NT currently operational.
I've seen reports that Mogas brought out SAFF some time ago and their website does not talk about Bio, or Bio blends however there is a pdf listing all the SAFF sites as of 2006 and it showed many using both bio unleaded and bio diesel. I can vouch for many of the ones in SA, Ouyen and Mundrabilla all selling bio unleaded and most selling bio premium diesel as of Nov/Dec last year but as to their percentages I don't remember
K
KraftyPg
Guest
I was just reading something very similar to that. Apart from the fact that once again we seem to be getting lumped into American standards as if their standards are the be all and end all you have to wonder how practical allowing the driver to do such things is.
Sure he's probably trustworthy, I know I was as a driver but that never stopped me short changing a customer who p'd me off and I knew wouldn't check the order as it came through the back door.
I realise altering fuel to dangerous levels could be easily traced to the driver and if there was problems the fuel companies would send him up the river before they took the wrap (which might be why they like the idea) but still who's to say the driver wasn't having an off day when he measured the stuff out. Although it's probably computer driven and computers dont ever make mistakes
There are several sides to that.
One driver loading 32K litres of diesel is going to affect up to 500 cars (say, at about 60 litres per tank as a guesstimate average).
Causing damage to the majority of those vehicles won't result in a class action against the driver because there's every chance that the driver doesn't have deep pockets and your lawyers will see that and refuse to commence the action.
Taking class action against the fuel supply company may not work as they supplied the fuel correctly.
Taking action against the retail outlet may not work as they are only supplying the fuel that they were delivered and may be able to claim immunity since they weren't responsible for the mix of the fuel.
Gotta hand it to them, they're smart, and if the truckie had one too many coffees and couldn't find a rest stop then there'll be 500 people with odd-smelling diesel that has a certain proportion of bio-something.
I was happy with the Caltex "up to 2%" blend but have just filled up with BP and think I'm going to stay with them for now.
One driver loading 32K litres of diesel is going to affect up to 500 cars (say, at about 60 litres per tank as a guesstimate average).
Causing damage to the majority of those vehicles won't result in a class action against the driver because there's every chance that the driver doesn't have deep pockets and your lawyers will see that and refuse to commence the action.
Taking class action against the fuel supply company may not work as they supplied the fuel correctly.
Taking action against the retail outlet may not work as they are only supplying the fuel that they were delivered and may be able to claim immunity since they weren't responsible for the mix of the fuel.
Gotta hand it to them, they're smart, and if the truckie had one too many coffees and couldn't find a rest stop then there'll be 500 people with odd-smelling diesel that has a certain proportion of bio-something.
I was happy with the Caltex "up to 2%" blend but have just filled up with BP and think I'm going to stay with them for now.
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KraftyPg
Guest
Although not a bio issue a similar thing happened in Victoria 6 months ago. There was a large amount of silicone found in a companies fuel supplies yet while it effected quite a large number of cars to the point of them dying no action is yet to be taken because there is too much finger pointing and not enough proof.
Caltex are awaiting approval from the ACCC to buy up about 300 odd mobil stations so anyone who likes Caltex might have more options when it comes to buying fuel soon
Caltex are awaiting approval from the ACCC to buy up about 300 odd mobil stations so anyone who likes Caltex might have more options when it comes to buying fuel soon
I find it interesting that SAFF (AFF) - here's their website - say this:
With news articles like this April 2009 one from ABC.net.au
you have to consider that they may not be worth taking on in a legal challenge for repair costs to the vehicle after their fuel caused a failure, which (given that this allows us the hindsight needed) means their fuel isn't worth touching with a barge pole, especially if they're letting their drivers fiddle with the supply that they "do not blend".
Is the fuel supplied by them only fit for 300 year old tractors hand-crafted by Captain Cook himself? What was their intention, to supply cheap fuel for farm implements and they realised they could flog their fuel to passers by as well?
I'll list them (for SA, NSW and NT so far) as a "possible blends up to 20%".
With news articles like this April 2009 one from ABC.net.au
you have to consider that they may not be worth taking on in a legal challenge for repair costs to the vehicle after their fuel caused a failure, which (given that this allows us the hindsight needed) means their fuel isn't worth touching with a barge pole, especially if they're letting their drivers fiddle with the supply that they "do not blend".
Is the fuel supplied by them only fit for 300 year old tractors hand-crafted by Captain Cook himself? What was their intention, to supply cheap fuel for farm implements and they realised they could flog their fuel to passers by as well?
I'll list them (for SA, NSW and NT so far) as a "possible blends up to 20%".
K
KraftyPg
Guest
Made by farmers and used by farmers, but hey people buy meat and stuff from farmers why not fuel.
Their whole website and sites about them are as suss as the whole bio fuel debate anyway. One site shows 78 of their servos with bio diesel or unleaded yet another site says they don't use it and the site from the company who supposedly bought them out says nothing about bio. Seems to me that truth in the industry would go a long way to being helpful.
Oh and I don't know just how far they have spread but Ouyen is in Victoria and the last thing I read before I gave up on this mob was that they were hoping to have Melbourne metro stores running by the end of 09 but I'm yet to see any myself.
Their whole website and sites about them are as suss as the whole bio fuel debate anyway. One site shows 78 of their servos with bio diesel or unleaded yet another site says they don't use it and the site from the company who supposedly bought them out says nothing about bio. Seems to me that truth in the industry would go a long way to being helpful.
Oh and I don't know just how far they have spread but Ouyen is in Victoria and the last thing I read before I gave up on this mob was that they were hoping to have Melbourne metro stores running by the end of 09 but I'm yet to see any myself.
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This has just been blocked today by the ACCC.
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KraftyPg
Guest
Good to see the ACCC are finally doing something. Although all it means is that someone else, maybe an independent will buy them as one or it will be split cause Mobil still want out of the retail sector and they'll do it even if they have to sell it separately.
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Krankin
Guest
Saw an interesting label today whilist driving around Melb today.
It was about 200mm x 200mm in size and adhered to the fuel tank above the filler neck af a prime mover size truck but was not a familiar make/model and seemed relativly new.
Anyway the label read:
NO BIODIESEL
NO FUEL ADDITIVES
STRICTLY
DIESEL ONLY.
It was about 200mm x 200mm in size and adhered to the fuel tank above the filler neck af a prime mover size truck but was not a familiar make/model and seemed relativly new.
Anyway the label read:
NO BIODIESEL
NO FUEL ADDITIVES
STRICTLY
DIESEL ONLY.
K
KraftyPg
Guest
Sounds to me like a manufacturer trying to cover their arse from warranty claims, they can't say the person filling the vehicle wasn't warned if the sticker is on the tank.
Mind you given the list at the start of this thread showing which companies are adding small amounts of BIO to their supplies you have to wonder just how they expect these trucks that could fill up anywhere not to get some Bio in them at some stage. I bet if they could prove it come warranty time whether it's 5% or 90% Bio they will kill the warranty until such time as there is no other option but to get some form of blended fuel. Wonder if the driver/owner adheres to the warning
