Biodiesel

[Old.Tony]

I'm sure we'll all appreciate that, Krafty!

I'll be doing the same on my upcoming trip. We've changed paths - heading up to Broken Hill then back east.

 

[KraftyPg]

Oh between us we will nearly cover the truck route Sydney to Perth. I don't go through Adelaide, I go over the top and then divert of the major route down to Mildura. There is a bit of distance between where I turn off and Broken Hill but I'm fairly sure it's less than a tank full.

 

[Jason]

Oh, forgot to mention, Shell in Aspley, QLD - 0% Bio.

 

[Biscuits]

Well, i have been using Gull Biodiesel for over 12 months now. Didn't realise it was an issue, Nissan never said a dam thing.... No problems that i am aware of because of it.

After reading this thread, i think i may have to switch back to guiness, i mean real diesel

 

[KraftyPg]

There is no definite proof that Bio is an issue and there is thousands of people using it in thousands of different applications without causing problems, if Bio wrecked every engine it was put in there would be a lot more outcry than there currently is. If you've been using Bio all this time and noticed no major problems and you're happy with it then to me there is little reason to change.

There is nothing saying Nissan WON'T uphold a warranty claim if Bio is used it only states they may not, but it's the same deal with anything you use that isn't specifically approved by Nissan. They don't want to fork out money for repairs unless it's undeniably their fault, any denilability and they will argue it just like any other producer.

I used Gull unleaded bio in my old Forrestor on previous trips across Nullarbor and never noticed a difference. I didn't bother using Gull on my last trip in the Nav but that doesn't mean I wouldn't. We don't have a lot of bio pumps around here, although we've got a few farmers making their own, and I possibly wouldn't use it as my everyday fuel even if we did but it's interesting to hear you say you've been running it without problems for so long.

 

[bloodviper]

i dont use bio i use 100% used coocking oil in my td25 and it runs fine i dont think the newer engines like bio or wvo much but i could be wrong i have a few mate runing and making bio and they swear by it

 

[KraftyPg]

There's no true evidence been produced as far as I've seen that say any Bio no matter what the blend is going to hurt any particular engine, the main reason it is suggested not to use it is because no one actually knows of it's long term effects good or bad.

My old boss was making his own bio from a variety of sources to run the small truck fleet of Mitsu Diesel's and apart from requiring a few more fuel filter changes he claims they never had any issue, and given that the trucks were shit boxes to start with he's probably right.

 

[jjohn]

A bit hard to tell which brand has how much % bio. I would have thought they should have to show it at the pump like the Unleaded eh? Some of the web sites aren't very clear on the subject either.

 

[Old.Tony]

They're obliged to tell you if they use over 5%. Under 5% they don't have to say a word. They are not allowed to supply more than 20%.

Despite those limits, you can't be sure. With drivers mixing the stuff at the depot, who knows how much you're actually getting.

That said, I've seen no evidence at all that commercially-supplied biodiesel is bad for the engine. Home-grown stuff I wouldn't touch with a barge pole, I'd rather walk, but like I've said in other posts, I've bought fuel at some places where you'd expect high proportions of bio and the fuel has been great.

I am no longer as scared of this particular monster.

 

[jjohn]

I used Caltex Vortex and found it great so far, then read that it contained bio and looked at it for myself. Web say's 10%. Ok but why not noted at the pump?
As you say over %5 we should be told.
A concern if regulatory authorities not making sure of it then who may be taking it further and splashing what % where.

 

[Al]

As far as i know its only ethanol that has to tell you. Any bio in the diesel isn't required to be displayed. As for its use, all i can say is my uncle who has been with a ford/nissan dealer for 30+ years said they have had a number for near new d22s (one was only 2 months old) come in after using bio with fuel pump failures. He warned me to avoid using it, so i will be. I think you'll find a lot of these new gen diesels have some bio in it as it provides these cleaning/foam reduction properties. 97% of the time i am running mobil fuel as it still remains 100% dino fuel so 7eleven is my prefered fill up station.

 

[Old.Tony]

Ihe local Caltex had a sticker on their diesel bowser that said "May contain up to 5% biodiesel". They weren't obliged to show it, but they did - possibly in an attempt to appease the anti-fossil-fuel crowd. They've upgraded their bowsers and I don't recall seeing the stickers any more, so I don't know what they're doing.

If I find the legislation regarding this I'll post it up.

 

[KraftyPg]

The biggest reason for not running bio is still that you don't know what's in it. As Tony says anything with some sort of commercial grade while it might still be crap is in some ways legislated and made to fit some guidelines, the stuff you might be able to purchase at the servo in the boonies or from the bloke in the pub who says he's siphons it from the local fish and chip shop is the stuff to avoid at all costs.

Dealers know they can't instantly blame stuff that comes out of the pump from Mobil etc but because so many home brews are made in such different ways it's logical for them to want to cancel warranties if these home made blends are used.

That being said I do know a trucking company of 8-12 tonne trucks that have been running on canola oil for several years now, the stuff is made in the same depot the trucks park in and they fill up as needed. Warranties aren't an issue to these trucks given their age but in the time they have been running the stuff no major faults that can be contributed to Bio alone have been found. I still wouldn't run the stuff in my Nav but that's not because it doesn't work, like dealers I'm weary of the unknown.

 

[Krankin]

Our work vehicles, VW Caddy's have labels at the filler port stating
"NO BIODIESEL".


.

 

[ST-R]

Our work vehicles, VW Caddy's have labels at the filler port stating
"NO BIODIESEL".


.

BMW X5 Diesels have the Same "No Biodiesel" and the red cross of death on the sticker.

And you can not blame gthe manufacturers for doing so, how could they warrant the engine/fuel system etc when the fuel is such an unknown quantity.

I guess as Boi standards develop, manufacturers will too develop a compatible fuel system that will accept a legislated standard.

BTW, Tony may be good for this, "Is there an "Australian Standard" for Biodiesel?

Regards
Greg

 

[Al]

The Australian Federal Government also introduced a new Diesel standard in March 2009 which now permits for the inclusion of 5% biodiesel blended in any Diesel sold.

 

[Old.Tony]

Greg: yes, and here is the National Standard. There is a link to the summary page which covers the chemical requirements (ash content, minimum cetane rating, sulphur content, acidity, density, flashpoint etc etc).

The problem I think the motor vehicle manufacturers have is that when we all hear the word "biodiesel" we immediately turn our heads towards the local fish and chip shop. They assume that because WE (the vehicle owners) are contemplating biodiesel, what we're really thinking about is chucking a few battered savs in the tank and taking it out for a run.

Commercially manufactured biodiesel (that the oil companies either make, or purchase and mix into their diesel) will HAVE to comply with the national standard and won't be a problem.

It's when you go pouring your old deep fryer oil in the tank that causes issues. There might be recipes for making your own on the internet, but for now - on these new diesels at least - I think the best advice is sit back and let the experts do it. Oil companies have been making go-go-juice (and draining our wallets) for years - I'll leave it in their hands.

 

[ST-R]

Greg: yes, and here is the National Standard. There is a link to the summary page which covers the chemical requirements (ash content, minimum cetane rating, sulphur content, acidity, density, flashpoint etc etc).

The problem I think the motor vehicle manufacturers have is that when we all hear the word "biodiesel" we immediately turn our heads towards the local fish and chip shop. They assume that because WE (the vehicle owners) are contemplating biodiesel, what we're really thinking about is chucking a few battered savs in the tank and taking it out for a run.

Commercially manufactured biodiesel (that the oil companies either make, or purchase and mix into their diesel) will HAVE to comply with the national standard and won't be a problem.

It's when you go pouring your old deep fryer oil in the tank that causes issues. There might be recipes for making your own on the internet, but for now - on these new diesels at least - I think the best advice is sit back and let the experts do it. Oil companies have been making go-go-juice (and draining our wallets) for years - I'll leave it in their hands.

Thanks Tony.

That is a good read. A Current affair and their top notch! opposition occasionally run the fish and chip story in the Gemini or Mazda 626 diesel story. I wonder how many punters have gone out and bought a new common rail Ford Focus, Hyundai i30 or similar and done the old fish and chip job on them to find thousands of $ in damage?

Regards
greg

 

[Old.Tony]

Thanks Tony.

That is a good read. A Current affair and their top notch! opposition occasionally run the fish and chip story in the Gemini or Mazda 626 diesel story. I wonder how many punters have gone out and bought a new common rail Ford Focus, Hyundai i30 or similar and done the old fish and chip job on them to find thousands of $ in damage?

Regards
greg

One of the events relayed to me by the dealer when I was buying my car was a Navara that had stopped working, the service department pulled it apart and found fatty deposits through the entire fuel system.

That's a scary thought. Nissan won't warrant that sort of failure - because it's caused by something other than manufacture defect or poor workmanship on Nissan's part - and I think this is right. What's scary is the cost: you have to pay the labour as your fuel tank, fuel lines, fuel pump ($4k just in that), fuel filter, injector lines & hoses and all injectors ($400 each) are replaced.

That's what worried me the most about biodiesel - but I've come to realise that it's not BIODIESEL that is the risk - it's home-brew.

 

[jjohn]

Mmmm, battered sav's blyukkkk.
There is no denying the oil co's will do it better than Dick Wilts at 96....
I would like to think there are some firm reg's on what % they are allowed to use, and make it obvious at the pump.