Biodiesel

[Krankin]

Sounds to me like a manufacturer trying to cover their arse from warranty claims, they can't say the person filling the vehicle wasn't warned if the sticker is on the tank.

Mind you given the list at the start of this thread showing which companies are adding small amounts of BIO to their supplies you have to wonder just how they expect these trucks that could fill up anywhere not to get some Bio in them at some stage. I bet if they could prove it come warranty time whether it's 5% or 90% Bio they will kill the warranty until such time as there is no other option but to get some form of blended fuel. Wonder if the driver/owner adheres to the warning

Re the earlier posts about bio content,
had a look at the Caltex site and they claim to give you the choice if you want to use blended fuel or not.

Am not aware that its been made law that all diesel is blended.

Same as the ethanol blend unleaded, you have the choice of using it or not.

So far anyway.

 

[Old.Tony]

Most of the service stations in this area have just one diesel bowser. Our only choice is whether we're paying with cash or card.

When we're travelling out on the highways, there's often less choice. You can't get diesel in places like Sofala. Hill End limits you to 40 litres - and I think their bowser only has unleaded anyway.

 

[KraftyPg]

Well you have the choice if you know which servos are using blended, you can always drive away if the pumps says anything about blended fuels but it's still not always practical. My locals don't list their blend figures which means they should be 5% or below but with no signs a Bio blend could still be getting pumped without he user knowing

I haven't seen any servos that have both blended and unblended under the same roof but that doesn't mean they don't exist. Round here the only signs on the pumps are to tell anyone but trucks not to use the high flow bowesrs but I ignore those signs anyway, high flows are usually less busy.

There is no laws saying they have to use Bio blends just like there is no law saying they can't but who knows what will come in the future when some moron convinces the government and that we need to be more green and this is the only way to do it.

 

[Krankin]

Most of the service stations in this area have just one diesel bowser. Our only choice is whether we're paying with cash or card.

When we're travelling out on the highways, there's often less choice. You can't get diesel in places like Sofala. Hill End limits you to 40 litres - and I think their bowser only has unleaded anyway.

Oh well,

youll have to move to Melb

 

[Krankin]

Well you have the choice if you know which servos are using blended, you can always drive away if the pumps says anything about blended fuels but it's still not always practical. My locals don't list their blend figures which means they should be 5% or below but with no signs a Bio blend could still be getting pumped without he user knowing

I haven't seen any servos that have both blended and unblended under the same roof but that doesn't mean they don't exist. Round here the only signs on the pumps are to tell anyone but trucks not to use the high flow bowesrs but I ignore those signs anyway, high flows are usually less busy.

There is no laws saying they have to use Bio blends just like there is no law saying they can't but who knows what will come in the future when some moron convinces the government and that we need to be more green and this is the only way to do it.

I've not seen any here or anwhere in Melb yet that have biodiesel.

It was made law that ethanol blend unleaded was advertised and the % set.

I cant see why Bio would be any different, especially as the transport/ construction and heavy industry would jump up and down much more vigorously that the general population in protest.

 

[Old.Tony]

There are official references to the inclusion of biodiesel.

WA Fuelwatch - Fuel Types says:

...under Federal legislation, diesel can contain up to 5 percent biodiesel fuel without a labelling requirement.

That page points to the Federal legislation governing diesel and biodiesel.

Following extensive stakeholder consultation amendments have been made to the Fuel Standard (Automotive Diesel) Determination 2001 (the diesel standard) to allow up to five per cent biodiesel fuel without a labelling requirement from 1 March 2009.

Sorta bites, eh?

 

[KraftyPg]

I've not seen any here or anwhere in Melb yet that have biodiesel.

It was made law that ethanol blend unleaded was advertised and the % set.

I cant see why Bio would be any different, especially as the transport/ construction and heavy industry would jump up and down much more vigorously that the general population in protest.

All depends what you want to call Bio, there is no one product on the market classed as Bio on the grounds that so many things can be added to it and they can still call it diesel. There is one servo down here that is selling a blended bio made on a farm about 20ks away. Of course it's not a leading brand servo but that doesn't mean they aren't selling it to those who think it's doing wonders and they aren't all farmers with little knowledge of their machinery some of them are heavy industry, it takes all sorts.

I don't mean to make an example of Old Tony because I'm sure he's clever enough to make his own decision on what fuel he's using but he's mentioned his christmas plans on this forum and I know for a fact that the roads he's going to travel has one servo that's using 100% Bio and several others using 20%. If he doesn't know the area and he's touring and finds himself deciding whether to fill up at town A or town B, the difference being that if he doesn't stop at town A he has to stop at town B or he will run out of fuel. What happens if town B is the 100% Bio. There is little way of telling until you get there. Many tourist would be the same and many areas a lot more remote than this would be the same.

I believe all servos should make it known what they are using not matter what the blend figures, one day soon I'm sure the government will sell us down the river and make us all start using it in some form but until then they should be up front with they are selling. But then honesty in the fuel industry has never been a big thing before.

 

[Old.Tony]

That's the reason for creating this thread, so that we all consider the biodiesel issue when planning a journey.

 

[Krankin]

There is one servo down here that is selling a blended bio made on a farm about 20ks away. QUOTE]


Are they also making moonshine there?
Have run out of stock.


Yes I can take in the last 2 posts points.
Its not good.
If the manufacturer specifies you only use unmixed diesel and all the servo's are selling blended then WTF are you supposed to do.

 

[Old.Tony]

The answer to that lies in Nissan's response (first post) and the Australian Government's advice (on the Federal legislation page pointed to above).

Nissan advised "Use non-bio diesel unless its unavoidable and change back as soon as possible", but added the caveat "do not use 100% bio" (paraphrased). The government states:

The use of five per cent blends is generally accepted by vehicle manufacturers and does not require modification of standard diesel engines. These amendments provide certainty to consumers, fuel retails and the fuel industry. Motorists can have confidence that when they buy diesel, if supplied to the standard, it will meet current international fuel quality standards.

That's carefully worded. "... generally accepted" does not mean "they like it". However, the warranty protection lies in the last sentence. The manufacturer may attempt to avoid a warranty claim based on biodiesel usage, but if you're using unmarked biodiesel, it's at most 5% and it meets the standards, which means Nissan can't back out.

That's the important part, for us. Performance is also an issue - biodiesel can lower the calorific value of the fuel, providing less energy during the combustion cycle and therefore less "go" - which equates to higher fuel usage. Saving 2c per litre by using biodiesel looks less attactive when you're using an extra litre per hundred km.

 

[KraftyPg]

Are they also making moonshine there?
Have run out of stock.


Yes I can take in the last 2 posts points.
Its not good.
If the manufacturer specifies you only use unmixed diesel and all the servo's are selling blended then WTF are you supposed to do.[/QUOTE]

There is plenty of people making moonshine all over the country but thats not the point. The similarities between Biodiesel and moonshine probably aren't that far fetched given that they can both be made by so many different recipes. The fact that we have one servo selling it isn't a weird phenomenon or anything I will guarantee there are other servos across the country selling a form of home made Bio.

Atleast when a servo does move into selling such stuff they are required to tell people (even if it's only at the pump where it may be too late). These big fuel companies that by law don't have to say they are blending it as long as the blend is under 5% is a joke. We pretty much have to accept that if we are filling our tanks at the "average" servo we could well be using a blend of up to 5%.

I very much doubt the manufacturer would have a claim against you given that such small amounts don't need to be disclosed and therefore available to the majority of the population but as far as I'm concerned that just opens the gates for the 5% to become 10% without the users getting a say.

People are forever going on about the price of fuel and how the fuel companies are ripping us off. Diesel is about the lowest grade of crap they can give us yet they still want to add stuff to it and make production costs cheaper. At this stage if I can at all avoid it I wont run a large percentage blend or a 100% bio fuel through my Nav but that doesn't mean I don't want to given that I have used it previously in trucks and my dislike for fuel companies. Still my guess is if they all said Bio was ok and we should all use 100% bio the likes of Caltex and Shell etc would have servos filled with the stuff before anyone else who might be doing it now gets a chance to enter the market.

 

[Krankin]

Mate...the moonshine bit was meant to be some humour,
but anyways.....


How can a manufacturer knock your warranty back if the fuel outlet does'nt advertise its selling you blended fuel?

and your right the diesel is crap in refinement terms,

just as LPG was a waste/byproduct of the petroleum refining process that used to be burnt off,
untill they found a use for it and look now how much cash they're making from it

 

[KraftyPg]

My moonshine bit was meant as a segway into the rest of the discussion about crappy diesel, but they don't make simileys for segways, not that I use them much anyway, it's easier to offend than find the right smiley that supposedly makes it all feel better.

As I said I doubt the dealer could make a claim against you for using the fuel available from most major fuel outlets, but that wont stop them trying if they are looking at the replacement cost of a motor or something as expensive.

They have tried to fight people using their own mechanics for ages and still get away in some cases with being able to blame the small mechanic for damage to cars that void warranties so blaming a fuel additive isn't a far stretch. However it is unfair for anyone who didn't do it by choice.

 

[Krankin]

None taken.

 

[KraftyPg]

What I find slightly amusing is that every time I read this thread, which on more than one occasion has said it's not a good idea to use Bio fuels there is always an ad for Caltex BioDiesel stuck between two of the threads.

I'm not a huge fan of web ads to begin with because of the way they are organised and I don't click on them but I understand the need for some people to make money. However I do wonder just how often on this thread when a poster has said "don't use Bio" has someone read the next section and clicked on the link telling them to discover the truth about the stuff only to discover it's an ad for Caltex.

Same goes for the ads telling us to check out GW Utes on the other pages. Then again its probably only me that finds this stuff slightly amusing.

 

[Jason]

Ha ha, that's the power of Google Ads I suppose. I highly doubt that Dylan 'makes money' from this site, if it helps contribute to the costs of running the site then no complaint from me.

No joining fees and even businesses can advertise for free Some of the other 4wd forums have some REALLY intrusive ads (4wd Action in particular) and they can be quite a pain (for me anyway).

But yes, I find some of the ads amusing as well. Key words huh?

 

[Krankin]

funny that,
never noticed them till now you mentioned them...

as the ball & chain keeps telling me "ya don't see it cause ya man looking".

 

[Jason]

U.S. Energy Company to Buy Jatropha-based Biodiesel - Domestic Fuel

Copenhagen summit could mean big business for biodiesel - Biodiesel Magazine

 

[KraftyPg]

Maybe if we sell all our Bio to the US they wont have enough to add it too our fuel....yeah as if. It does go to show that some countries are really taking it on and using it too. Of course there is hundreds of uses for the stuff and one company in the US would probably only serve a small minority but they wouldn't be buying it if it wasn't selling

 

[KraftyPg]

By the time I get home next month I'm going to have a list of all the roadhouses across the Nullabor (pretty much from Melbourne to Perth really), whether they use diesel or Bio and what brands they are selling. Obviously the prices I pay this trip will have little bearing on future trips but since I do this trip atleast once a year my idea is to make life easier on myself and my Nav by using only those services I trust. If this list is useful to anyone I can post my findings once I have them so that others may be able to cross the country and not worry about getting a batch of shitty bio or even plan their trip using only one brand of fuel.