Idiots on the road.

[ants_oz]

I would argue that until we start teaching people to be CITIZENS and that there are responsibilities associated with that, then things won't improve.

All people seem to care about is what they can get away with - not what they SHOULD be doing.

Every person is responsible for their own actions.

 

[SOLID D22]

I would argue that until we start teaching people to be CITIZENS and that there are responsibilities associated with that, then things won't improve.

All people seem to care about is what they can get away with - not what they SHOULD be doing.

Every person is responsible for their own actions.

Yes your right, but people dont care what they do, thats why it is hard to teach them. This is my point.

 

[ants_oz]

Yes your right, but people dont care what they do, thats why it is hard to teach them. This is my point.

I understand your point. But is everything (and I mean EVERYTHING) you do on the road 100% legal? Is your vehicle 100% legal and roadworthy to the letter of the law?

A wise old adage from a seldom read book...(some here may be familiar with the book that I am talking about)...

"Let he who is without Sin cast the first stone."

Not having a go at you mate, just observing and commenting.

 

[Old.Tony]

Amen.

if someone is flying down the road at over 160k then driver training is gona do stuff all when there is tress and objects lining the streets and their sliding out of control

I would argue that if this were to happen, the person should be removed from the road and placed in a cell.

They aren't just placing themselves at risk, they are placing other people at risk too.

The comment about "non-turbo vehicles" is something I also disagree with. Allowing powerful cars to be in the hands of people who are reckless is courting disaster. Why do you think they reduced the size of a motorcycle engine that a learner can ride?

More power brings with it more risk, it's that simple. And it's not just risk to themselves or their passengers (and THAT is why they want to reduce the number of passengers), it's risk to everyone else too.

If someone wants to hoon, they should get Gran Turismo, a great big TV screen and crank up the volume.

If someone wants to go out on the streets and hoon, hopefully they are caught before they can injure someone.

Limit vehicle power? Great idea.
More police presence? Another great idea.
Put repeat offenders behind bars? Yes, and impound the car as well.

Someone has to teach those idiots that they aren't the only road users, and the rest of us follow the road rules for a very good reason.

 

[SOLID D22]

My car isnt illegal, its got the same suspension setup as a patrol (coil springs and shocks), new navs are coil sprung, sits lower than a patrol, has skinnier tyres than a patrol, how does that make it illegal, and not just comparing to a patrol but every other car out there that is coil sprung. So its not illegal.
If it is illegal 10min and $800 later it wont be. Stupid isnt it.
But anyway thats not the point at hand, i know of engines 1.5l that rocket along so a non turbo theory is pointless,
Listen to my point im not arguing anything the government is trying to do to prevent accidents but if a person is going to speed there is nothing that anyone can do to stop that person from speeding, period!
Here me out im not protecting speeders but thats just the truth.
You think any amount of speed cameras, driver training, police presence or fines or impoundments will deter these people, then youve got it totally wrong, a small portion of people may take notice so it has worked in a sense, good, but once again my point is there is the other small portion that dont care which still leaves us where we are in the beggining. We have to make the car non lethal not the peson because that does not work.

 

[Dave]

As much as I love a good argument and could easily produce stats that try to prove just about any topic this isn't the time or place for such comments. It's obvious that my 400ks a day (just incase you were wondering 6 x 400 is 2400ks a week, every week) along several major highways and arterial roads, in the darkness, the fog, the pouring rain and hail and my own experiences with emergency services are no match for your extremely vast knowledge of one 72k stretch of highway which so easily summerises the whole country and it's drivers.

Keep on Truckin'!

Maybe you had a bad day ?

Lose the attitude please, this is not a power trip. Its respecting other peoples opinion.

Dave.

 

[WIR35]

Useless was not the right word sorry. Jason summed up my point exactly, I meant useless in that particular profession. Of course I didn't mean they couldn't physically do another job if they weren't a truckie etc. I mean no disrespect to people in those professions.

With regards to what defines a professional driver, I don't see any grey areas at all. If your job is to drive, then a driver is your job. You earn your wage by carrying out the task of driving that vehicle and so you are a professional driver. Sure, a plumber needs to drive from job to job, but he doesn't get paid for his driving skills, he gets paid for his plumbing skills.

I'm not sure what training a "professional driver needs to go through other than getting their appropriate licences, but it should involve practical and theoretical training on vehicle dynamics, safe driving, what effects fatigue has on your body and state of mind, what to do in emergencies, what happens when you sit your 40 tonne rig 5 metres behind a sedan doing 110km/h and the sedan hits the brakes etc....... Things like that (and if it's of any interest, I also think EVERY driver should do these to gain a vehicle licence, and periodically after that)

My opinion on hefty fines for professional drivers stands.

My opinion that most non-professional drivers are completely useless drivers also still stands, however, until the government actually provides a decent driver training and testing program, and continual road rules advertising in the media then I don't think non-professional drivers need be held to the same account for their misdemeanours.

 

[ants_oz]

My car isnt illegal, its got the same suspension setup as a patrol (coil springs and shocks), new navs are coil sprung, sits lower than a patrol, has skinnier tyres than a patrol, how does that make it illegal, and not just comparing to a patrol but every other car out there that is coil sprung. So its not illegal.
If it is illegal 10min and $800 later it wont be. Stupid isnt it.
But anyway thats not the point at hand, i know of engines 1.5l that rocket along so a non turbo theory is pointless,
Listen to my point im not arguing anything the government is trying to do to prevent accidents but if a person is going to speed there is nothing that anyone can do to stop that person from speeding, period!
Here me out im not protecting speeders but thats just the truth.
You think any amount of speed cameras, driver training, police presence or fines or impoundments will deter these people, then youve got it totally wrong, a small portion of people may take notice so it has worked in a sense, good, but once again my point is there is the other small portion that dont care which still leaves us where we are in the beggining. We have to make the car non lethal not the peson because that does not work.

Look mate, you've changed the suspension from double wishbone torsion bar to something else - that requires engineering approval. Your car is unroadworthy unless it has been engineer approved. You can try and dodge the issue in any way you want, but the facts are on the table. For goodness sake, spend the money and make it legit. That kind of thing was the whole point of my other thread about illegal modifications - until it is actually approved, it is illegal - what gives you the right to think you can openly flout the law. What makes you any different to the bloke who gets a skin full of grog and drives home from the pub? Breaking the law is breaking the law. That is the point I was trying to make...

You are shooting yourself in the foot by trying to argue a good point while breaking the law every day by driving an unroadworthy vehicle , and doing other honest, law abiding 4wders no favours either....us guys that make the effort to ensure our vehicles are entirely road worthy don't appreciate it.

While I appreciate what you say about making the car "non lethal", how do we do that? It could be argued that Gov'ts try to get to a reasonable level that people will accept. But would the population accept EVERYONE having to drive inflatable balls powered by small battery powered motors because some people will always push the edge when given the chance.

It's once of the great public policy challenges - how do you protect the public from themselves, when the public wants and expects certain freedoms. An example - we all expect the "right"to drive along the highway at 100km/h yeah? Yet we also know that fuel usage increases dramatically with speed - all got to do with wind resistance. So, if the Gov't decided to protect us all from global warming and reduce our consumption of fossil fuels by arbitrarily reducing the maximum speed limits on our roads to 60km/h, what would everyone's position be? No one could argue that fuel usage would drop dramatically. We drive at higher speeds for convenience. But that, as a public policy position for any political party would be political suicide.

Something else to think about while we're on the subject of road deaths. Australis's vehicle fleet (the number of registered vehicles in Australia) has increased something like 4 times in the last 20 approx years. The numbers are very rough, but near enough for arguments sake. Yet our net road toll is steady, or possibly decreasing if I recall correctly. So.......are we actually in a better net position or a worse net position or are we breaking even? While I think it's a tragedy when someone dies accidentally, it is impossible to protect people from themselves.

 

[Old.Tony]

We can't drive nerf cars powered by intercooled rubber windup motors. Cars are what they are.

I don't think that it's just a small portion of the population that keeps to the rules - the greater majority, most of the time, obey the law.

It's the ones who simply don't care - or don't even think - about other peoples' lives that are the ones creating the risk. Why should the rest of society have to suffer or compensate for the few morons that can't obey the law?

Take the idiots off the road and do the rest of society a favour.

 

[KraftyPg]

I'm not sure what training a "professional driver needs to go through other than getting their appropriate licences, but it should involve practical and theoretical training on vehicle dynamics, safe driving, what effects fatigue has on your body and state of mind, what to do in emergencies, what happens when you sit your 40 tonne rig 5 metres behind a sedan doing 110km/h and the sedan hits the brakes etc....... Things like that (and if it's of any interest, I also think EVERY driver should do these to gain a vehicle licence, and periodically after that)

As stated previous I agree totally with professional driver training and have indeed done professional and defensive driving courses to gain each licence accreditation does it make me a better driver than anyone else here? Does it make me any better than other "professional" drivers? Maybe, maybe not but who's better isn't the issue here. I know I am a better driver than I would have been had I not done them and thats really all that matters.

As a supervisor hiring and firing drivers a few years ago I recommended some of the drivers actually do these courses after some near misses and other incidents. Of course I couldn't force them however as casuals I could limit the hours they spent on the road. Once again I'm not proclaiming it's the right thing to do but in my eyes it surely wasn't the wrong thing and I don't feel bad about cutting their hours back.

Many trucking companies (well the reputable ones anyway) are now spending more time on driver training to ensure their drivers are more aware of the effects of driving. Some are even training management to make sure they don't put unachievable demands on their drivers and they are to be congratulated the more that do it the better. The sad but true fact though is that it can't ever get rid of the biggest problems, the biggest problems are the ones that ignore rules, ignore training and push everything to the limit no matter what they drive.

As far as the government providing more training and more media releases of the rules I don't see why it always has to come down to the government. As someone else stated driving is a privilege not a right, it's up to each and every licence holder to know and understand the rules and it's up to them to seek more training.

Dave: I'm sorry but I wasn't having a bad day when I typed that message last week I was simply expressing an opinion and using my experiences against someone elses. If you read it as a power trip and/or me disrespecting his opinion more than anyone else has been disrespecting others opinions then unfortunately you must have read it the wrong way.

 

[Old.Tony]

This entire subject is highly charged. Some people actually believe it's their God-given right to break the speed limit and/or to drive vehicles that do not conform to the legal requirements.

They may be able to justify this:

"It's only 10km/h over the limit"

"It's a straight stretch of road and my Commodore says it can do 220 so I must be able to"

"Paying $800 to get my 6" lift kit approved is a waste of money"

"I wanted to see the looks on people's faces as I went through the school zone at 160!"

What's even worse is that the people that believe 10km/h over is safe can not ever be convinced otherwise, because doing so seems to be a personal attack against their driving skills or their car.

The defenders should consider that we're not actually taking pot-shots at them, just at the actions, and it's not a skills or equipment issue - it's pure physics. Even with the best brakes and tyres, when a kid runs out in front of your car, the faster you're going, the deader that kid will be. No amount of money or training is going to change that.

We're not talking about trying to make people late for their dentists' appointment. If you need to get somewhere that's 10 minutes away, leave 10 minutes before you need to get there, not 5. Bloody obvious yes, but as solutions go it's the last one people seem to think about.

Driver training is good and can help. For professional drivers (read that as "for those people who have to drive in the course of their employment, which does not include getting to and from work" ) then these courses are an advantage, but really, if they're driving all the time and being considerate (that's really the entire key to this issue), they are already better by sheer experience than the average driver.

I could go on for hours, citing news examples and more. I just think we all need to bear in mind that when we read what others write, we shouldn't assume that we're attacking any individual here, but examining the actions and trying to deal with these exceptional circumstances in conjunction with the way society works.

Most of society are sheep - they'll generally follow the flock. If that means a rule that says "do this", they do it. If that rule is to keep the rest of the flock safe, then those few not following the rule are endangering the flock and the flock really should question why those few should be allowed to continue doing so.

 

[KraftyPg]

For the most part I agree with you Tony but can you please give us a detailed description (with images if necessary) of the various stages of being deader. Is there a stage where one stops being deader and becomes completely screwed or is that the first stage?

I also agree that one could go on for hours citing millions of different cases for and against (and that really goes for any topic) but all that typing would just kill us and while some cases might abbreviate well for a quick type on a forum others don't. There is possibly even a majority of people out there who only skim the topics anyway which also explains why so many different opinions can quickly get off the mark.

I still think the bottom line here is that idiots will always wreck it for the rest of the population that don't make arses of themselves and while education is a good step, eradication is the only sure fire way, but please before anyone takes this the wrong way I am not suggesting we become vigalantes and shoot people when we see them doing wrong on the road...although maybe....NO I am not!

 

[Old.Tony]

I am not suggesting we become vigalantes and shoot people when we see them doing wrong on the road

Then you are on the wrong side of the argument! Go sit in the other corner!

</end humour>

 

[KraftyPg]

Then you are on the wrong side of the argument! Go sit in the other corner!

Geez you don't play fair, you is a big meanie and I'm taking my bat and ball and going home

 

[SOLID D22]

If my car is illegal then why did it pass an engineer inspection with no problems, because its not illegal get it, you dont know my car, you dont know the history of what its been through. The place that installed my setup regurlarly has engineers come through and look at their work, mostly comp trucks, when they had an engineer come in and look at one of their trucks that needed to be engineered, the engineer also had a look at my car too, it caught his eye, he liked it, and when the owner of the shop asked if the setup was ok to pass a engineering inspection he said as i have said before 'it will pass with flyin colours'. So my car has been engineer approved, happy, i just didnt pay $800 for a piece of paper to say it is.
Before you take pot shots at commenting on my car, i strongly suggest you look at your own cars because most aftermarket components are built way stronger than standard nissan crap. How long do you think standard shocks last, 10,000km and there useless. please.

Am i a hoon NO, and i am all for cars that cant speed on road, YES. If we all have to suffer because of the select few who dont want to obey the law then so be it, its not different for me than any other day of driving, cos i dont speed.
How about the new nissan GTR in japan, it cant do top speed on the roads because thats the way its setup, but take it to a race track and it senses its at a track and its all open slather from there on in, thats the type of technology im thinking of that should be standard on cars.

 

[Old.Tony]

If my car is illegal then why did it pass an engineer inspection with no problems, because its not illegal get it, you dont know my car, you dont know the history of what its been through. The place that installed my setup regurlarly has engineers come through and look at their work, mostly comp trucks, when they had an engineer come in and look at one of their trucks that needed to be engineered, the engineer also had a look at my car too, it caught his eye, he liked it, and when the owner of the shop asked if the setup was ok to pass a engineering inspection he said as i have said before 'it will pass with flyin colours'. So my car has been engineer approved, happy, i just didnt pay $800 for a piece of paper to say it is.

I think the point that's being made is that without that piece of paper, according to the law the vehicle is not considered legal.

I have absolutely no doubt in my mind at all that you've got a stronger, safer vehicle than I have because I agree with you 100% that after-market stuff is going to be stronger than original equipment.

The entire point that's being made, though, is that without the official certificate stating that it's been checked and is safe, the law - and insurance companies too - will not consider it roadworthy.

Getting it certified after an incident won't cut it either - because they'll say that you should have had it certified (which means officially inspected) before you put it on the road in the first place.

Don't get me wrong here - this is not about whether you have built a good or a bad car. It's purely about how the law works, and how insurance companies will take advantage of the law. If something happens - someone t-bones you as you drive past a side-street - they could easily make it YOUR fault because that certificate is missing.

Sometimes the law sucks like that. But then I'd rather have it like this, than letting some idiot stick a 10 litre V8 engine in a Sherpa fitted with tractor wheels and a beer bottle cap for a steering wheel.

 

[SOLID D22]

I know its all about the piece of paper, trust me if it wasnt checked by a professional engineer at the shop i would not of hesitated to get the certificate there and then, but because it was im waiting for a law enforcing officer to tell me to get one. There is no way in the world i would sit my family in my car if i knew it wasnt safe.

 

[Krankin]

Then you are on the wrong side of the argument! Go sit in the other corner!

</end humour>

Hehehe....Does he get to wear the DUNCE hat.

 

[Krankin]

For the most part I agree with you Tony but can you please give us a detailed description (with images if necessary) of the various stages of being deader. Is there a stage where one stops being deader and becomes completely screwed or is that the first stage?




I would describe DEADER as in less identifiable body and maybe bits and pieces all over the place

 

[Krankin]

If my car is illegal then why did it pass an engineer inspection with no problems, because its not illegal get it, you dont know my car, you dont know the history of what its been through. The place that installed my setup regurlarly has engineers come through and look at their work, mostly comp trucks, when they had an engineer come in and look at one of their trucks that needed to be engineered, the engineer also had a look at my car too, it caught his eye, he liked it, and when the owner of the shop asked if the setup was ok to pass a engineering inspection he said as i have said before 'it will pass with flyin colours'. So my car has been engineer approved, happy, i just didnt pay $800 for a piece of paper to say it is.
Before you take pot shots at commenting on my car, i strongly suggest you look at your own cars because most aftermarket components are built way stronger than standard nissan crap. How long do you think standard shocks last, 10,000km and there useless. please.

Am i a hoon NO, and i am all for cars that cant speed on road, YES. If we all have to suffer because of the select few who dont want to obey the law then so be it, its not different for me than any other day of driving, cos i dont speed.
How about the new nissan GTR in japan, it cant do top speed on the roads because thats the way its setup, but take it to a race track and it senses its at a track and its all open slather from there on in, thats the type of technology im thinking of that should be standard on cars.

I beg to differ with "ALL" aftermarket parts are stronger than OE.


And secondly. the fact remains that without that "paper" eng certification stamp and approval to a modified vehicle that is road driven,
not only is it illegal,
but in effect is UNREGISTERED, UNROADWORTHY and UNINSURED when it comes down to it.
simple as that, no ifs or buts.